You might as well add an official DPS log to the game...

[Voidmage]

Though one way to vet whether the PF got a 'prog liar' who is studious and consistent, the in game logging system should also record the number of deaths for each pull, and to what attack.

If we start with logging each and every single thing a player does in those fights and use that as a hurdle to overcome, then we can close PF entirely and make a new thing called "Elite player mode". Why not give each playercharacter a number over their head that shows their skill level when we start doing that? Let's divide the playerbase even more.

PF simply needs to get their crap together and take a few steps back to how it was in the past, that includes prog liars as well as tomestone-brains. The whole situation is starting to spiral out of control when we now even want to have transparent players for content in a frigging video game.
Like I wrote before, where do we draw the line? The idiots have already taken over PF, next they take over Deep Dungeons or Alliance raids?

This whole discussion over damage meters, checking in PF and kicking of players over numbers will only result in HW raiding just for another reason. Even now you have people who simply give up on raiding because they get fed up with PF and part of the reason is on the devs who seem to mostly care for Savage nowadays and the content creators who comfortably sit in their little static bubbles while acting like they know everything and have the one true opinion on fight and job design.

The last thing this situation needs is more kindling to the flame, it needs de-escalation otherwise the number of raiders will shrink down, especially when 8.0 does give jobs more focus again and the next wave of crying starts from the raiding scene.

SE doesn't know how or can't be bothered to deescalate situations, only to backpedal once the fire gets out of control.

While I agree, this is something the community can de-escalate as well to an extent.


Edit:
What people and the devs need to realize again is that it's a video game. It's fine to not clear week 1, for jobs to be divers and better at certain things than others and that it's fine to wipe.
Lately all the non casual content has this "I am glad it's over feeling" for people I think sometimes.
If we start changing the game just to make the whole experience even stricter, shoo away old raiders and potential new ones and if the devs repeat the start of DT with their ignoring of non raiders then where will we end?

[Daralii]

If we start with logging each and every single thing a player does in those fights and use that as a hurdle to overcome, then we can close PF entirely and make a new thing called "Elite player mode". Why not give each playercharacter a number over their head that shows their skill level when we start doing that? Let's divide the playerbase even more.

PF simply needs to get their crap together and take a few steps back to how it was in the past, that includes prog liars as well as tomestone-brains. The whole situation is starting to spiral out of control when we now even want to have transparent players for content in a frigging video game.
Like I wrote before, where do we draw the line? The idiots have already taken over PF, next they take over Deep Dungeons or Alliance raids?

This whole discussion over damage meters, checking in PF and kicking of players over numbers will only result in HW raiding just for another reason. Even now you have people who simply give up on raiding because they get fed up with PF and part of the reason is on the devs who seem to mostly care for Savage nowadays and the content creators who comfortably sit in their little static bubbles while preaching what is right or wrong.

The last thing this situation needs is more kindling to the flame, it needs de-escalation otherwise the number of raiders will shrink down, especially when 8.0 does give jobs more focus again and the next wave of crying starts from the raiding scene.

SE doesn't know how or can't be bothered to deescalate situations, only to backpedal once the fire gets out of control.

[Toutatis]

it's fine as it is: use it for yourself if you want as an improvement tool. Your own numbers can vary depending on job, party composition and how the group plays and not everyone can understand how it works (once had a party leader complaining about my dnc numbers while I was the only one in the group getting purple+ numbers because they were looking at the wrong thing and comparing it to the sam in the group). You don't need it to identify the weak link: it's easy to figure out without any external help

[theunhappypotato]

Because the person has obstructed your gameplay and progress through the TOS.

nah i just kick and block em and go on with my evening most players are smply not worth the efford

[Ankhira]

This raid tier, particularly M10S, has radicalized me into firmly believing that yes, logging should be officially implemented/allowed and even made mandatory for all players in high end content. Tomestone should effectively be added to the game itself, and you should be able to right-click on someone in party finder to see their prog point for a given fight. You should not be allowed to hide this information. Party Finder should have features to automatically filter players from even joining your party based on their prog point similar to item level requirements.

If the devs don't want this sort of "toxic" raiding environment, then they should stop designing fights in a way that encourages it. When every mechanic is a body check and requires perfect execution from all 8 players in order to clear the fight - when seven players can do everything perfectly and still get punished because of one player messing up - gatekeeping becomes a necessity for anyone who values their time and health.

While I fully disagree with them adding logging into the game officially, I do very much agree with your second point. They can't say "Don't be toxic, be nice, help people learn" then keep designing fight after fight where ONE person can wipe you 8 minutes into the fight. It's a breeding ground for toxicity. But I think if they added official logging and DPS meters to the game it would become even worse.

Look at this community, everyone is quiet in game they are annoyed, but they atleast mostly keep it to themselves and the "worst" they do is kick someone unless someone is really toxic and berates them. But the moment you are outside of the game, on here, reddit, twitch, Youtube, the community is just as toxic as any other MMO. The moment they add a DPS meter to the game, that toxicity will be used in game as well. Hell it's already kinda happening now with tomestone.

Like with MOBA's, people say the worst things and spend more money on it than they do on XIV and don't care about getting banned. On top of that, I feel like DPS meters are problematic in the sense that, you could be wiping to a mechanic because one person messes it up, then they'll go "Oh, x has low dps, kick them." even though x was doing mechanics properly. It's not a good idea.

I think SE needs to step away from body checks and punishing everyone for one persons mistakes, it creates frustration, not challenge. Maybe it works in JP but in the west it simply does not work.

[Thaciscokidd]

snip

Eh you get the same stuff in JP like Na/EU except they take there complaints and/or toxicity to sites with more anonymity that funnily enough Squenix ends up seeing anyway. Heck certain groups have extra hoops that you gotta jump through fail those and you're get insta kicked.

I don't think that they'll ever get away from making savage content. They enjoy making that content even if its for a smaller audience. They've gotten better at it from the days of Bahamut Prime til now. The problem isn't the content and how hard it is, it will always be what people expect from party members and what said party members are able to bring. There are people out there who can do the mechanics flawlessly but couldn't tell you how to do the mechanics without confusing the living daylights out of you. Not everyone can(or want to) teach other player sufficiently. If everyone could this wouldn't be a problem at all. PF would be filled with the willing. And further more, you can make it easier and there still will be people out there complaining that its too hard. We could get Y'shtola to hold our hands through it all and people would complain that its not G'raha Tia.

[Ankhira]

I don't think that they'll ever get away from making savage content. They enjoy making that content even if its for a smaller audience. They've gotten better at it from the days of Bahamut Prime til now. The problem isn't the content and how hard it is

Uhh, I never said they should stop making Savage content? I’m not against Savage at all. My point was specifically about fight design and how body‑check mechanics don't work with the developers feelings regarding kindness and patience. I’m not asking for Savage to go away. I’m saying that punishing 7 people for 1 mistake creates frustration, not challenge, and that’s what breeds toxicity not the existence of Savage itself.

[Thaciscokidd]

Uhh, I never said they should stop making Savage content? I’m not against Savage at all. My point was specifically about fight design and how body‑check mechanics don't work with the developers feelings regarding kindness and patience. I’m not asking for Savage to go away. I’m saying that punishing 7 people for 1 mistake creates frustration, not challenge, and that’s what breeds toxicity not the existence of Savage itself.

I understood that. That's why I said "it will always be what people expect from party members and what said party members are able to bring" at the end of your quote. Player accountability has always been a part of harder content in any game. Miss a roll on a Souls like and you're pushing up daisies. Dropped that combo - King just chain wrestled you from full health to dead. Miss that speed boost you just dropped from 1st to 5th. Move during Flame Wreathe - you just wiped the raid. Blow that coverage, the other team just scored 6 on you. Don't have enough damage on Nerscylla Clone - say hello to Delta Attack.

I disagree wholly that player accountability in harder content is what breeds toxicity. You get your leeway in normal content so you can see the story. The harder content is a test of what you have learned and have to learn for a tier. That frustration is what makes you push harder, give up, or sadly correct that weak link.

[Aidorouge]

While I fully disagree with them adding logging into the game officially, I do very much agree with your second point. They can't say "Don't be toxic, be nice, help people learn" then keep designing fight after fight where ONE person can wipe you 8 minutes into the fight. It's a breeding ground for toxicity. But I think if they added official logging and DPS meters to the game it would become even worse.

Look at this community, everyone is quiet in game they are annoyed, but they atleast mostly keep it to themselves and the "worst" they do is kick someone unless someone is really toxic and berates them. But the moment you are outside of the game, on here, reddit, twitch, Youtube, the community is just as toxic as any other MMO. The moment they add a DPS meter to the game, that toxicity will be used in game as well. Hell it's already kinda happening now with tomestone.

Like with MOBA's, people say the worst things and spend more money on it than they do on XIV and don't care about getting banned. On top of that, I feel like DPS meters are problematic in the sense that, you could be wiping to a mechanic because one person messes it up, then they'll go "Oh, x has low dps, kick them." even though x was doing mechanics properly. It's not a good idea.

I think SE needs to step away from body checks and punishing everyone for one persons mistakes, it creates frustration, not challenge. Maybe it works in JP but in the west it simply does not work.

I remember asking in another topic about PFs for Savage (and other hardcore content in general) what happens when there's no longer enough bodies willing to show up because the frustration isn't worth the effort anymore to enough people, or the only ones running it are exclusive statics that are not looking to pick up pugs no matter what their numbers might say.

Meanwhile we have people in this topic demanding DPS meters as if that's somehow supposed to expand the pool of available players instead of shrinking it further, or how someday it could end up being the meter supporter themselves when there's no longer any "prog liars" to be found. One bad day, one bad connection, one bad pull and they're off to the blacklist same as anyone else, and they have to accept the outcome because its a system they themselves advocated for.

This game isn't exactly pulling in new players, and the few it does aren't likely to step into this content if this is how it works or the supposed "social norm" that people want to defend. Incidentally... there's always players who keep demanding that the game has a "free MSQ skip" because they want to rush people to endgame for some reason. It's almost like the lack of sustainability has already come to roost but instead of wanting the system changed, they think the solution is to just try and rush more meat into the grinder because surely SOME of it will be good enough, right?

[TwiceDamned]

If we start with logging each and every single thing a player does in those fights and use that as a hurdle to overcome, then we can close PF entirely and make a new thing called "Elite player mode". Why not give each playercharacter a number over their head that shows their skill level when we start doing that? Let's divide the playerbase even more.

They've been begging for that for a long time. One step closer to making XIV the Pay Real Money To Progress old-school FFXI was.

Meanwhile we have people in this topic demanding DPS meters as if that's somehow supposed to expand the pool of available players instead of shrinking it further, or how someday it could end up being the meter supporter themselves when there's no longer any "prog liars" to be found. One bad day, one bad connection, one bad pull and they're off to the blacklist same as anyone else, and they have to accept the outcome because its a system they themselves advocated for.

I think they want to further restrict the number of players in this game and make it clear they are done with the casual playerbase. I don't think they want to expand the pool of available players at all.

To wit...

nah i just kick and block em and go on with my evening most players are smply not worth the efford

Then how do we kick and block you beforehand?