Tillana should not give 50 Gauge.

[NightHour]

Someone in this thread mentioned doubling the Esprit cap while under Technical Finish which would not add another buff. It would just be an additional effect under the Technical Finish buff just like how MNK's doubling of the Chakra cap effect is under the Brotherhood buff.

Why not just add it to the "Enhanced Technical Finish II trait" ?


Before -

Enhanced Technical Finish II (Lv. 100) - Grants Dance of the Dawn Ready upon executing Technical Finish.


After -

Enhanced Technical Finish II (Lv. 100) - Grants Dance of the Dawn Ready upon executing Technical Finish. Increases Maximum Esprit to 150 while under the effects of Technical Finish.

[Valence]

I haven't had the opportunity to play the job down to the bone in actual raiding like I have with MCH and BRD, but I've played it regularly in various content and especially this expansion, and I'm gonna double down on my initial take, I'd hate to see the 50 gauge Tillana gone for the reason I exposed. I like juggling with this, sorry not sorry. It really informs what series of abilities you're going to use when getting into Technical depending on your gauge level, and then how it procs up. Just by the entry alone in Technical, very low gauge <20/30, safe to Tillana immediately, above 50, just DotD, between you can for example spend the Last Dance ready to wait for more gauge and DotD. If nothing happens for whatever reason (light party, solo), you can even use the Flourish procs to gauge up and DotD safely.

This wouldnt even be a mental exercise with an auto/free DotD proc.

[Liyinabi]

I haven't had the opportunity to play the job down to the bone in actual raiding like I have with MCH and BRD, but I've played it regularly in various content and especially this expansion, and I'm gonna double down on my initial take, I'd hate to see the 50 gauge Tillana gone for the reason I exposed. I like juggling with this, sorry not sorry. It really informs what series of abilities you're going to use when getting into Technical depending on your gauge level, and then how it procs up. Just by the entry alone in Technical, very low gauge <20/30, safe to Tillana immediately, above 50, just DotD, between you can for example spend the Last Dance ready to wait for more gauge and DotD. If nothing happens for whatever reason (light party, solo), you can even use the Flourish procs to gauge up and DotD safely.

This wouldnt even be a mental exercise with an auto/free DotD proc.

I've had the opportunity to play DNC in all content that has released this expansion, from normals up to ultimate. The mental exercise is a complete pain when combined with situational downtime and a full party of high-end raiders mashing their buttons.We really don't need it

The change also made Endwalker legacy ultimates kind of awkward because now you have to hard standard step in the middle of burst windows to not drop standard finish since tillana no longer refreshes the buff time, and the fights weren't built with that in mind so it just feels awful. Standard stepping before burst isn't always an option due to forced downtime, phase transitions, cutscenes, 2 min alignment, etc etc.

I can see 50 gauge tillana not being an issue in normal content, but the more high-end content I do with it the more I hate it and want it changed.

[Carighan]

I've had the opportunity to play DNC in all content that has released this expansion, from normals up to ultimate. The mental exercise is a complete pain when combined with situational downtime and a full party of high-end raiders mashing their buttons.We really don't need it

Its wild how much my experience doing savage prog and farm with DNC differs from that, I actively brought the job because of how carefree and easygoing it is. Yes it has multiple - albeit individually very very minor - elements of actually good class design that frankly all FFXIV jobs ought to have in spades so we could have interesting class designs.

But really, some coinflip procs, two unreliable-income resources that are both non-crucial to the gameplay loop... that's not exactly a lot. Very simple class design. I guess it goes to show how samey and mind-numbing the other classes all being full static rotation is, that by comparison Dancer feels so "busy" in comparison to some?

[Reginald_Cain]

Tirana should refresh standard finish buff. Idk why tf it doesn't. As far as the overcapping goes it's 50/50 . It would be a nice qol change for some and a braindeadification for the player who like playing around with kit friction. I feel like they should make Tirana not overcap because they took away my reaper gauge management from plentiful harvest and my inner villain wants to make my fellow forum lurkers car and val suffer my pain. XD

[NightHour]

Tirana should refresh standard finish buff. Idk why tf it doesn't. As far as the overcapping goes it's 50/50 . It would be a nice qol change for some and a braindeadification for the player who like playing around with kit friction. I feel like they should make Tirana not overcap because they took away my reaper gauge management from plentiful harvest and my inner villain wants to make my fellow forum lurkers car and val suffer my pain. XD

They did it because then Finishing Move would serve no real purpose.


I'd rather they

- Remove the +50 gauge from Tillana
- Reinstate Tillana refreshing Standard Step
- Either remove or make Finishing Move do something else.


I always said they just took from RPR and decided "oh giving free gauge is good gameplay, let's shove it on Dancer because Dancer clearly needs more gauge during burst"

[Valence]

How about we stop watering down the job for once we have something interesting going. That's the only interesting optimization play we have with this job (at the opposite of the atrociously bland EW version) and as usual we have people trying to remove it because it "gets in the way".

[Liyinabi]

How about we stop watering down the job for once we have something interesting going. That's the only interesting optimization play we have with this job (at the opposite of the atrociously bland EW version) and as usual we have people trying to remove it because it "gets in the way".

Managing tillana doesn't even feel like optimization play, it literally just gets in the way. In a full party of 8 people actually pressing their buttons, you'll never want for gauge during burst unless your proc RNG is atrocious. You'll never be able to fit in an extra saber dance because burst/pot window are only so many GCDs. It might be the difference between getting an extra saber dance or not after burst, but your success rate with managing tillana is literally down to RNG at the end of the day and I wouldn't consider it an actual expression of skill. Someone with perfect tillana management can get screwed over by proc RNG. Someone with horrible tillana management can skate by on well-timed procs.

Other jobs who had their gauge buttons replaced with buffs like RPR or RDM had skill expression in the form of being able to properly manage their gauges even with downtime or longer encounters. Dancer, with its gauge being RNG-based, is not one of those jobs.

Tillana's 50 gauge being turned into a buff won't make it any less interesting than it is, and there will still be a level of management since you need to ensure that you don't burn it right as your gauge is at risk of overcapping. Changing it into a buff would just give dancers 50 gauge worth of wriggle room after pushing tillana because sometimes the gauge really only feels like proccing like crazy after you press it, and there's nothing you can do about it.

[Carighan]

Managing tillana doesn't even feel like optimization play, it literally just gets in the way.

Why? Because you "have to" press another button before it? Is doing an optimal rotation "getting in the way" now, when playing a DPS character?

but your success rate with managing tillana is literally down to RNG at the end of the day and I wouldn't consider it an actual expression of skill

Proc-based class is based on procs. News at 11. Hear, hear.

Also, managing procs is apparently now not an expression of skill. I guess we'll call the past 30 years of MMORPG class design and tell every dev they clearly didn't actually do what we can see they did, yes.

Seriously, it's funny how utterly FFXIV players with their hyper-static hyper-preplanned rotations on all but two jobs can't handle those two classes because those have like I dunno, 10%-15% of the class design proc- or randomization-based classes from other games would bring.

[Valence]

Managing tillana doesn't even feel like optimization play, it literally just gets in the way. In a full party of 8 people actually pressing their buttons, you'll never want for gauge during burst unless your proc RNG is atrocious. You'll never be able to fit in an extra saber dance because burst/pot window are only so many GCDs. It might be the difference between getting an extra saber dance or not after burst, but your success rate with managing tillana is literally down to RNG at the end of the day and I wouldn't consider it an actual expression of skill. Someone with perfect tillana management can get screwed over by proc RNG. Someone with horrible tillana management can skate by on well-timed procs.

It gets in the way for you maybe. Not for me.

It's never been about wanting for gauge nor about fitting extra sabre dances. It's about generating interesting priorities, because rng jobs just being about playing whack a mole isn't exactly what I call interesting proc gameplay personally. Managing Tillana involves skill and quick thinking on the spot.
Let's stop killing rng jobs with the sandpaper please.

Other jobs who had their gauge buttons replaced with buffs like RPR or RDM had skill expression in the form of being able to properly manage their gauges even with downtime or longer encounters. Dancer, with its gauge being RNG-based, is not one of those jobs.

Can you elaborate on what you mean with that? What does this have to do with downtime?

Tillana's 50 gauge being turned into a buff won't make it any less interesting than it is, and there will still be a level of management since you need to ensure that you don't burn it right as your gauge is at risk of overcapping. Changing it into a buff would just give dancers 50 gauge worth of wriggle room after pushing tillana because sometimes the gauge really only feels like proccing like crazy after you press it, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Of course it will make it less interesting, since you'll remove 80% of the priority system in the burst. The only thing remaining will be "use sabre whenever it lights up". Riveting.
There is literally no risk of overcapping as long as you dump Sabre when reaching 50 gauge in such a system.