New Dungeon is a return to bad habits

[SyferU]

stuff like this always reminds me of that one time I fell asleep for like 2mins during a dungeon boss in shadowbringers and I didn't get hit by any mechanics lmao. I'm just built different.

[ShadowyZero]

I think its a shame they can do a lot with ffxiv's dungeons to both please casual players, midcore and hardcore but they tend to just keep them to the same old formular or try to frustrate people with a sudden jump in difficulty when the game hasn't really prepared them or expected it from them that far into the game.

Perhaps a Difficulty setting such as
Story (on par with EW)
Normal (On Par with DT)
Hard (more harsher mechanics and more punishing then normal)
Expert (Unforgiving, less difficult then EXT but expect a lot of wipes, trial and error and learning)
Ext/Savage? (Maybe a super challenging version of those said dungeons)
.

its cause of sunk cost fallacy that they don't do (hard mode) dungeons anymore i believe they figured it was eating up too much resources and development time just to re-use a dungeon but have different bosses and mechanics. but they seem to be doing it with variant/criterion dungeons at the very least which is something but i just wish it wasn't just a one off thing i wish they did variant/criterion style for all player dungeons as that makes them at least more enjoyable to revisit from time to time.

as for difficulty levels i honestly think they just need to make a more difficult deep dungeon style content for those who want the extra challenge i feel like those who really want to be pushed to the limits of their jobs would appreciate something they can work towards alot more then just trying to carry others an be bored in the casual normal difficulty roulette dungeons etc.
and truthfully i dont think midcore players mind either way they know there is challenge out there if they want something a bit more difficult an they don't need to feel like they have to trample on the casuals content to earn that etc.

[Valence]

Correct we disagree, I view it as more creative than what was there in Endwalker/SHB. Let's focus on your last statement though, all tab target MMOs are constrained by that nature, so if you view stage transformations, puzzles and movement as DDR slop and you want less of it, isn't that the entire game? I mean.. it's not going to turn into an FPS like call of duty or even like a different combat design like Elden ring or Oblivion....

So, go into specifics of what does this engaging battle system you want look like? Because by your statements, even if they add the full job depth and complexity we are wanting, the game is going to be DDR in nature (as tab target MMOs are).

And further more, if you don't care about encounter design, like you've stated, then why would it matter what we get to you? Unless you do care, but if you don't want gimmicks or movement, then does it mean you want a training dummy you can hit for 10 minutes? Help me understand you.

Who's even talking about a FPS?

Judging by your inability to picture anything else than the encounters, and your mention of training dummies, you've not played before ShB I assume? There has always been a manner of DDR with telegraphs in XIV, and even moreso scripted enemies and fights. It just happened not to be 99% of the game, and it was a lot less obnoxious as well as giving us more options, solutions and agency than today. Just look at a middle ground dungeon design from the late HW or SB era: do you seriously think they're harder than EW dungeons? They're mechanically a lot less involved. Running them today is boring af, yet people like citing EW as the major culprit of boredom in dungeons.

All in all I've done this countless times on these forums and it's gotten painfully clear over time that trying to explain what pve was like to people that haven't played through the game before ShB is incredibly hard because they have no point of reference nor personal experience like we do. But yeah, very, very short and sloppy tldr: tank and mob positioning, actual healing considerations, personal and party resource scarcity (which has always been a hallmark of all FF titles btw, and most RPGs in general), better job identity and more engaging class mechanics, less guitar hero, boss and fight mechanics more focused on organic threat levels than standing in the right spot or running all around like frogs in a blender. And if we go back enough in time, dungeons that are more than simple hallways, but where side rooms would actually matter.

Note: "I couldn't give a crap about their encounter design" as in "it doesn't interest me, but it sure as hell can get in the way of my enjoyment of the content".

[DarkOmegaGod]

I said exactly the same thing. The actual multiplayer dungeon experience just needs to be completely decoupled from the MSQ at this point. You cannot design the long term content in your subscription based MMO around the hypothetical MSQ andy that subs bi-yearly and plays exclusively with trusts. It is simply not sustainable. Look at how much the WoW dungeon format offers to players in contrast to XIV. I would never expect small indie company SE to put out something comparable but the current output is not acceptable.

[Ath192]

Who's even talking about a FPS?

Judging by your inability to picture anything else than the encounters, and your mention of training dummies, you've not played before ShB I assume? There has always been a manner of DDR with telegraphs in XIV, and even moreso scripted enemies and fights. It just happened not to be 99% of the game, and it was a lot less obnoxious as well as giving us more options, solutions and agency than today. Just look at a middle ground dungeon design from the late HW or SB era: do you seriously think they're harder than EW dungeons? They're mechanically a lot less involved. Running them today is boring af, yet people like citing EW as the major culprit of boredom in dungeons.

All in all I've done this countless times on these forums and it's gotten painfully clear over time that trying to explain what pve was like to people that haven't played through the game before ShB is incredibly hard because they have no point of reference nor personal experience like we do. But yeah, very, very short and sloppy tldr: tank and mob positioning, actual healing considerations, personal and party resource scarcity (which has always been a hallmark of all FF titles btw, and most RPGs in general), better job identity and more engaging class mechanics, less guitar hero, boss and fight mechanics more focused on organic threat levels than standing in the right spot or running all around like frogs in a blender. And if we go back enough in time, dungeons that are more than simple hallways, but where side rooms would actually matter.

Note: "I couldn't give a crap about their encounter design" as in "it doesn't interest me, but it sure as hell can get in the way of my enjoyment of the content".

I did. I played the game when it flopped in 2010, 2013, Early HW, Came back for SB when I got into raiding a lot more and on since. So all in all since the games launch with a year or so break... and let me tell you, I still disagree. You talk like you have more experience than me but I likely have more than you. Not that it matters because preference is preference but since we're throwing length of play out there like it some sort of cred unless you played the game before Sep 2010 you don't have anything on me in that regard.

To me SB was the sweet spot. And I'm sorry to inform you that harder gimmicky dungeons were part of the formula, along with wiping being a possibility.

Lets got back to late ARR days, where the only things to do were grinding for the relic and running Expert dungeons. In those the challenge was to pull all the mobs and kill the before they killed all the tanks... heck I even carried MP potions just so I could cram in an extra flare.

People ruined this because they started getting toxic as hell when players couldn't keep up, hence the walls. Not to mention the barrage of insults and abandonment for a new player finishing the MSQ wanting to watch the CS.

The early stages of raiding with bahamut were interesting, but people weren't as organized, discord wasn't a huge thing and it well it went by a lot slower. Optimization wasn't what its become today, that much is certain.

If we were to perform those raids todays with full youtube guides, completely min maxxed gear and discord they wouldn't be as fun as you remember them, if you played that far back.

Endless dialogue quests that got so boring that they had to redo the ARR-HW dialogue slog not too long ago.

I'm sorry but given the player levels today that game would be super boring.

I will refrain from commenting on raiding in HW because that was during my break but everything my friends filled me in simply said a lot of it was broken which is what SB sought to correct.

SB was the funnest expansion imo, not only because they were introducing new types of content (ultimate, deep dungeons) but also because dungeon design was gimmicky, and dangerous. Which is what I'm advicating for.

However, and this is what made it the best expansion... On top of gimmicky dungeons and trials the job identity was there.

You could tell who mained what. You weren't going to come in as a BLM, or most jobs, into a raid just because you wanted to check it out and be able to perform fine just because you more or less know the class basics.

There was a lot more nuance (jank) that you just had to know about each job that anyone could tell if you weren't playing your actual job.

I'm still right in saying that dungeon novelty and gimmicks are important and they totally were a part of the game since it's inception.

What? you don't remember the damage check and the walls closing in on you in amdapor keep hard? It was a much more real damage check and people did fail it. gimmick.

That why nothing you say to me makes sense. Especially when you talk about the past like it wasn't full of the stuff I'm asking for and somehow disagreeing with me.

Anyways, the focus of this thread is on asking for more interesting dungeons unlike what we got. I'm not going to go into job depth because its outside the scope, but it was those two things combined, that made the game better in the past. So I don't know what you're ranting on about at this point.

If you happen to notice my forum join date coinciding with the SHB period. Thats because that's when the game started going the wrong direction. So I had to complain about it here.

It's always been DDR. Except in 1.0. My guess is that you don't want to go into specifics of this vision you have because you're too scared to open it up to scrutiny and criticism just like you did to me or you're too lazy. Either way. it's easy to sit back and just trash talk. How about you invalidate my requests by providing a better idea the devs can read about and use to improve the game?

That's what is actually useful of this place, and why I am being open about what I want.

[Valence]

Well then I stand corrected. You just sounded like a ShB+ player, that's about it. I've had that conversation so many times with those that eventually I was bound to stumble on a vet that didn't share my opinion.

I specifically mentioned SB dungeons as a comparison to EW's. I have no recollection of a single SB dungeon that had anything remotely "gimmicky" or "dangerous". Literally nothing (unlike ARR dungeons ironically, and some would wipe you hard if you didn't respect specific mechanics).

But you'll certainly get no notes from me on SB job design or how ShB destroyed everything I liked in the game.

I have plenty of posts made explaining it in excruciating details and yes I'm too lazy to rewrite whole essays again and again. If what I quoted above on what the game used to do right isn't enough for you, then I'm sorry. If most of the battle system concerns are out of the picture because this thread is exclusively about dungeon design and encounters, then what's left is essentially what ARR and HW dungeons did right: less stupid DDR, and more threat levels or mechanics actually talking to said battle system: damage stacks on enemies attached to their mechanics, juggling threat levels, etc. Like I'm sorry but if you think encounters are the same between Coils, Hard ARR dungeons, and Luigi's Mansion, I don't know what to tell you?

Nothing was done with their vaunted "exciting new encounter design" they promised for 7.2 to bring anything actually fun or exciting. They just tried cranking up difficulty and mechanical pace in storymode dungeons and called it a day. And we see how divisive this has been so far. Their direction is just completely out of touch.

[DeltaCyan]

My biggest problem is how thematically boring and samey it is. I swear every new dungeon added is just some dark space with neon lights and purple glowing enemies with some electrope nonsense.

Meanwhile look at heavensward and you have two new dungeons every 3 months with one being an asset flip of an old dungeon. Even though some called it lazy, every patch had a fresh expert roulette and I miss that.

[Kaurhz]

I would say a lot of character/gimmick started getting stripped from dungeons in around 3.2/3.3 to be honest... Sure we had some good bosses through up until 3.5, but they were just that... some good bosses. Wasn't entirely a baseline.

Same thing with Stormblood, so I wouldn't really synonymize it with dangerous... Once again, we had some dangerous bosses, but they were far and few between, e.g., Mist Dragon from The Burn, and this design was hardly the baseline for dungeon difficulty of that expansion.

I feel that sometimes people get far too caught up on the few bosses which were actually of that caliber, that it just completely skews perception of what was the baseline difficulty/danger.

Would also argue that in many cases where people would want to argue 'danger', is that it was more of a result of things not inherent to the dungeon, and not because the dungeon itself was actually dangerous.. e.g., availability of resources/guides compared to now, jobs then versus now, player skill then versus now.

[Ankhira]

Another one of these posts… honestly at this point we might as well have a megathread for difficulty takes. It really feels like there’s no winning here. When dungeons are harder, people complain that ‘less experienced players’ slow everything down. When they’re easier, people complain they’re boring. No matter what they do you are unhappy.

Personally, I genuinely don’t get the obsession with making dungeons harder when most people run them maybe a few times a week for 15–20 minutes. If this was something you grind for hours every day, sure, I’d understand wanting more challenge or engagement but this isn’t high‑end content.

Wanting more interesting layouts or less predictable trash? I'm with you on that. But saying stuff like ‘I don’t know what they’re thinking, it’s hard not to be disappointed all the time’ just feels like looking for reasons to be upset, especially when DT has had some of the best encounter design in the game.

If you want challenge there's plenty. Quantum, Chaotic, Forked Tower, New savage coming next reset, Ultimates, whatever. Not every piece of content needs to be a DDR‑speed reaction test. Dungeons are fine being what they are.

That's just how I feel, though.

[CCheshire]

Yes, and Stb was out 2017 so it's been 9 years later since then I'd just say to move on if anyone is hoping for SE to get a time machine to take us all back then now in 2026 at the end of DT expansion.

It's either that players accept that new dungeons are made to be easier for the current player base since it's still for MSQ, the basic content out each patch, or decide to start doing more new high-end content if they want more challenging fights. No one is thinking, oh Stb was the best time of the game except for a few players who are probably going to quit once they realize it's now 2026 and we're not going backwards for content design.