DRK feels super squish in comparison to the other tanks

[Terhix]

If you aren't using your tbn on cooldown in dungeons, you are making your healers life in dungeons miserable as is. No one is lining up burst windows in dungeons or raids. DRK are pretty much fine in high end content.

DRK is pretty much fine in dungeons, you can W2W every DT dungeon as DRK with 3 dps and no healer. I'm obviously not talking about dungeons.

Also anytime you proc TBN, is automatically never a dps lose, because the dps is being done anyway.

That is not correct in this high end content where you say DRK is fine. DRK is one of the lowest single-target rDPS tanks currently, switching last pace with PLD depending on the fight. It makes up for that fact by being able to pool more resources into the 2min window thus gaining more aDPS from raidbuffs and pots than other tanks, especially now that GNB became a 1min job. Edge is 460p and you can cram 5 of them into the burst window, which means you have very limited MP to use on TBN in-between bursts. If you maximize the defensive value of TBN, even when every single use of it breaks, you are losing dps. Contrast that with PLD who is actively encouraged to use Holy Sheltron or Intervention whenever you hit 100 oath, which is effectly "on cooldown" (substituting oath generation for cooldown).

I consider this as more just adding more healing to the 123, but more interesting.

Alternatively instead of messing with the job in ways that will have consequences in all content, if for whatever reason you need help in dungeons, you can just give DRK a small heal on Stalwart Soul and call it a day. I fail to see how putting a heal on an oGCD instead of a weaponskill makes it more interesting.

[Oizen]

If you play DRK 100% optimally for damage it feels like you only get a single use of TBN every 2 minutes.

I like TBN's break mechanic but the DT MP nerf is still the worst thing they've done to the job for a while.

[Akivar]

How exactly does adding some healing portion to edge and flood make any rotational changes? Does paladins sword combo having healing attached make them save it for outside of burst? No, I do not think it does. No paladin is holding back the sword combo so they can heal themselves later. It is just a pure buff with zero consequences. Adding healing to them is the same thing has the regen component to holy shelltron, just different. It adds a healing component to your TBN proc, but it also will just be a healing component to ALL uses of edge and flood. . And in dungeon situations that is nice too, because when those 12 mobs proc your tbn, you now get a heal attached right rigfht as well. Its just cherry on top of the cake. It doesn't change anything about rotations at all.
And what does dps have to do with this. If dps is the problem, then just add some potency to a few things. Boom, dps problem solved. DPS is literally the easiest problem to solve. And requires no discussion.

[Terhix]

How exactly does adding some healing portion to edge and flood make any rotational changes? Does paladins sword combo having healing attached make them save it for outside of burst?

Sword combo is on cooldown so its use in rotation is fixed, Edge and TBN are resource based and can be (and ARE already depending on boss) moved around.

Adding healing to them is the same thing has the regen component to holy shelltron, just different.

It's obviously not the same since sheltron doesn't interact with dps at all.

And what does dps have to do with this. If dps is the problem, then just add some potency to a few things.

DPS is not a problem, the incentives are a problem: you are incentivized to put all the MP you can into burst, but actively using TBN already pulls you in the opposite direction, this just exasperates the problem that already exists.

[Reginald_Cain]

Terhix said it perfectly dark knights biggest problem is intended design clashing with incentive. You are intended to have tbn refund an edge upon breaking but you cant hold multiple charges of dark arts. therefore you can't bank multiple free edge of shadows for the 2 minute window if you use multiple tbn's out of burst.

I really think if soul eater would give mp and hp then dark would feel a lot better

[RaionKansen]

So literally the title, DRK has felt bad to play since DT came out, and well I decided to do some testing and number Crunching and well found that DRK is Generally just Worse than the other tanks, in terms of mitigation by a significant margin.

I decided to put together a google doc of my findings since it's to long to post directly here.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

TL/DR
DRK’s Mit are at best Equal to WAR’s without the self-healing that WAR has.
PLD and GNB Both have Significantly Better Mit, while GNB even has more Self-Healing than DRK.
Additionally, No DRK does not do more damage than the rest; it's actually kind of tied for 3rd place with Warrior, with PLD and GNB doing more, though the exact Damage numbers are negligible.
The Mitigation Numbers however, are not so Negligible. Almost every other DRK main I’ve talked to has noticed that DRK feels SIGNIFICANTLY squishier than the other tanks.

You made this post and a google doc, but haven't completed any of the savage encounters this tier?
DRK mit is completely fine. You need to manage mana to use TBN when its needed and you have 2 stacks of Oblation.
What kind of testing did you do?

[RaionKansen]

That is not correct in this high end content where you say DRK is fine. DRK is one of the lowest single-target rDPS tanks currently,

This is a very dishonest statement.
The tanks are within 1-3% of eachother, with the exception of GNB being buffed too much in 7.3.

[Terhix]

This is a very dishonest statement.
The tanks are within 1-3% of eachother, with the exception of GNB being buffed too much in 7.3.

If it wasn't clear from context I wasn't complaining about DRK dps, but explaning to the person I was replying to why TBN can be a dps loss even if it breaks.

If my honesty is in question: I have some complaints about DRK design / gameplay, but I have currently no complaints about current DRK performance, be it DPS or mitigation.

[Reginald_Cain]

Big sword gang let's keep it civilized in here. It's clearly apparent that Dark knight is fine but let's not squabble and belittle eachother over wanting changes or not.

Dark knight has more than enough tools to handle all levels of content when played correctly. You cant use tbn as a crutch the same way as blood whetting but it's a sturdy shield with a low cd. It's important to learn your limits with this job and while it can lead to some wipes early on its a very rewarding job to learn. Saving teammates with clutch tbn is a great feeling too.

For low level dungeons dont use all your mits at the same time. Use reprisal on cd during big pulls,arms length is a mit,

Never be afraid to use living dead for big pulls, especially at levels below 70. It feels awesome to use now that you heal during walking dead attacks per enemy hit


I always saw Dark knight as an antithesis to paladins healing heavy kit. We block damage and retaliate by omnislashing the enemy. If we want take the level 30-70 range more comfortable for less experienced players then I'd just make oblation a lower level skill or add a weaker tbn variant. If we are adamant on returning drain tanking to the kit then re introduce abyssal drain as a gcd and make it the aoe equivalent to souleater.