Remove the wall between the monster groups before each boss so we can pull all

[Reginald_Cain]

I mean, tanks are invulnerable, they can take it. Healers probably still not even required in most cases anyway.

Riveting pve design.

Only warrior feels truly invulnerable in dungeons. The other tanks are only finally catching up to a point where I've seen A LOT of healers complain dungeons aren't fun for them anymore. However the non warrior tanks can be punished for not spacing mits correctly dungeons. The problem is that healers dont get to do much when a tank plays well.

I want tanks to feel sturdy and rewarding for miting correctly in dungeons and I want healers to have something to do. Tanks shouldn't get nerfed or made less fun to fix the healing issue imo. I think healers should heal more than players and have npcs to keep alive in dungeons. On top of that I'd like more dps buttons for them

[Supersnow845]

Only warrior feels truly invulnerable in dungeons. The other tanks are only finally catching up to a point where I've seen A LOT of healers complain dungeons aren't fun for them anymore. However the non warrior tanks can be punished for not spacing mits correctly dungeons. The problem is that healers dont get to do much when a tank plays well.

I want tanks to feel sturdy and rewarding for miting correctly in dungeons and I want healers to have something to do. Tanks shouldn't get nerfed or made less fun to fix the healing issue imo. I think healers should heal more than players and have npcs to keep alive in dungeons. On top of that I'd like more dps buttons for them

The discrepancy between a good tank and a bad tank is so ridiculous at this point that you simply cannot build future content design on the current tank sustain kits and then give healers more to do without absolutely overwhelming poor healers when they get a bad tank

Like imagine if you went “okay let’s take PLD’s current sustain as the baseline, we expect the tank to do this must sustain and will build future healing design around this”, firstly let’s ignore that that doesn’t fix the current 5 expansions trivialised by tank design let’s just focus on now if you have a bad tank that doesn’t understand their buttons and other expectations on the healer it’s going to overwhelm a less competant healer because they he content is designed with expectation of competency of the tank in mind.

It would be so much easier balance wise to lower the power of a tank who knows what their buttons do than it would be trying to build future design on the house of cards that is predicting a baseline expectation of the tank from the current massive discrepancy in output an individual tanks talent can output

You also have to consider in order to give healers meaningful feeling to their gameplay then tanks have to give up somewhere. Like say you the healers need to heal an NPC that if they die the boss one shots the tank (sorta like old aery final boss), in this case the tank is still reliant on the healer so their excessive sustain allowing self determination is meaningless and may as well be cut, if the NPC dying doesn’t kill the tank then the healers role is still inherently meaningless and the engagement paper thin.

A role with the name healer simply does not function if there isn’t a baseline necessity for a healer to actually heal to keep the party alive. That isn’t healers being selfish and demanding more, that’s simply in a game that has a trinity but also has content that is agnostic to the trinity healer is the role that will suffer the most, they have to have more extended to them to get an equitable experience

[Reginald_Cain]

Snow you make good points about potentially overwhelming healers with a bad tank, but thats literally why tank sustain became so overturned. Healers couldn't handle bad tanks very well pre shadowbringers, especially newer healers. I legitimately think reducing sustain for one role is magically gonna fix the other because 5 expansions have been made with some of the worst decisions regarding healing design as a whole across all roles in all content. It's literally just gonna be tanks being punished because majority of healers in dungeon cant press buttons. And healers might be slightly less boring but it won't be a huge improvement in fun. The overall joy of players would go down. We need MORE fun in EVERY role and I completely disagree with you that we need to lose mechanics on jobs to mask the blindness that is healer design in this game.

[Gyson]

(Also why are we just like, lying about math when it comes to efficiency? In old dungeons you could literally shave off 3-5 minutes of a 15-minute dungeon if you played fast and well. That is not a small percentage. You can look at completion time in your chat box to compare.)

It's not "lying", it's just a matter of not sweating the small stuff. I don't measure my dungeon-time-savings in percentages. If a run takes 20 minutes instead of 15 minutes, I'm not going to pretend my entire evening has been ruined. Otherwise I'd blow a gasket every time someone lost connection or had to emergency-AFK for a few minutes.

From my perspective people are stretching the truth when they claim larger pulls significantly reduce dungeon run time compared to smaller pulls. If I can count the number of minutes saved on one hand when I'm already spending ~20 minutes in a dungeon, I don't see the significance. It's why I don't care if someone requests smaller pulls when I'm tanking, or if a tank only pulls a single group when I'm playing DPS. Large pulls or small, I know the run will be over in around ~20 minutes as long as we aren't wasting time on wipes.

The original post suggested removing walls between pulls as a way of making dungeons less boring. I just fail to see how removing walls will increase my entertainment. Spamming AOE attacks on five mobs or fifteen mobs.. there's no difference, except now there's more circles to dodge frequenting the floor, which if anything is annoying and slows everything down.

[Supersnow845]

Snow you make good points about potentially overwhelming healers with a bad tank, but thats literally why tank sustain became so overturned. Healers couldn't handle bad tanks very well pre shadowbringers, especially newer healers. I legitimately think reducing sustain for one role is magically gonna fix the other because 5 expansions have been made with some of the worst decisions regarding healing design as a whole across all roles in all content. It's literally just gonna be tanks being punished because majority of healers in dungeon cant press buttons. And healers might be slightly less boring but it won't be a huge improvement in fun. The overall joy of players would go down. We need MORE fun in EVERY role and I completely disagree with you that we need to lose mechanics on jobs to mask the blindness that is healer design in this game.

In a normal trinity MMO there is three components that define the progression of an encounter

DPS
Agro
Healing

DPS has infinite usefulness while agro and healing have usefulness only so far as what’s needed to finish the encounter without dying.

The biggest problem here is that agro doesn’t exist anymore, so tanks and healers are fighting over the finite resource of required healing to progress the encounter. Sure it’s true that a lot of decisions of tanks getting more sustain was in response to healers not reaching the baseline but we also lost agro because tanks couldn’t reach the baseline. So when ShB came and nuked support design we lost agro and tanks got rewarded with higher survivability and more healing to cover the healer role while healers got nothing despite both roles losing what defined their job in the earlier expansions because they couldn’t meet the baseline

In the current design you physically cannot balance both support roles to fill the niche of filling the content’s limited need for healing, the best situation here is to give tanks back what they lost (whether this is agro or crowd control like PLD in deep dungeons I don’t mind either way I see pros and cons to both as someone who plays a lot of tanks) then give healers back the healing.

By standards of the game NOBODY reaches the baseline when you factor in competency of your worst DF players, but healers are most punished for it by being forced to share limited healing necessity with a role who’s heals are more effective at self healing in a situation only they are taking damage. Tanks should get their complexity back and cede healing back to the healers

[Valence]

No mask I am just sick of this game losing any challenge because some people will always find things too hard and not everyone can be accommodated. Video games have challenges by nature and if you want to single pull we already have an NPC mode. Removing walls will just make things interesting for everyone else who wants to not drift off in dungeons

Why don't you follow Yoshi's advice and go play ultimates if you're after difficulty and challenge? Like, this argument has been made fun of since forever because it was replied to somebody complaining about the gameplay of a role, but when it comes to challenge in the way you envision them, that's exactly what difficulty modes (ex, savage, ultimate, criterion, quantum, etc) are for?

And again, I'm saying this as someone that would greatly benefit from wall removal. I just don't believe it's the solution because i'm a radical.

In a normal trinity MMO there is three components that define the progression of an encounter

DPS
Agro
Healing

DPS has infinite usefulness while agro and healing have usefulness only so far as what’s needed to finish the encounter without dying.

The biggest problem here is that agro doesn’t exist anymore, so tanks and healers are fighting over the finite resource of required healing to progress the encounter. Sure it’s true that a lot of decisions of tanks getting more sustain was in response to healers not reaching the baseline but we also lost agro because tanks couldn’t reach the baseline. So when ShB came and nuked support design we lost agro and tanks got rewarded with higher survivability and more healing to cover the healer role while healers got nothing despite both roles losing what defined their job in the earlier expansions because they couldn’t meet the baseline

In the current design you physically cannot balance both support roles to fill the niche of filling the content’s limited need for healing, the best situation here is to give tanks back what they lost (whether this is agro or crowd control like PLD in deep dungeons I don’t mind either way I see pros and cons to both as someone who plays a lot of tanks) then give healers back the healing.

By standards of the game NOBODY reaches the baseline when you factor in competency of your worst DF players, but healers are most punished for it by being forced to share limited healing necessity with a role who’s heals are more effective at self healing in a situation only they are taking damage. Tanks should get their complexity back and cede healing back to the healers

To further on this I'm on the mind that SE completely broke down the fundamentals of the trinity when they decided in ShB to completely remove any kind of resource based gameplay, which was the true constraints that allowed for a functional trinity system in the first place. And people don't talk about about this if ever. Yes, they made tanks absolutely lopsided but even in ShB when it wasn't the case yet - except perhaps for WAR - the system was already collapsing under a lack of systems to make up for the loss. If there is no more resources to manage at the party level, if there is no sustain involved, if the party DPS to kill down a mob pack doesn't matter anymore, if defensive resources don't run out, if positioning doesn't drain resources anymore, then we're left with a system that's lost half its meaning already.

[Reginald_Cain]

Yes Valence you see it! They took away so much from the healers and certain other jobs in 5.0 and absolutely did not give us enough compensation even after endwalker released .

Scholar was effectively gutted and felt awful to play. It had no access to energy drain till we molded for it back. No aoe dots no shadowflare and a version of broil with a less satisfactory animation and sound. What it get? Summon seraph ... and sometimes a free shield.

Astrologian got fully reworked (as per usual) and lost all variety in card utility beyond damage. Had awful mana economy until 5.1 but at least got some good changes like neutral sect, and another ogcd heal that interacted a little bit with hellos actions.

White mage lost its ability to double dot, lost its aoe dot, and morphed into the glare mage wr know today. I liked the blood lily and wings so it was definitely the winner among healers in shadowbringers for me.

Bard lost its interesting song management with stormblood troubador getting removed in 5.0. Machinist also lost its proc based rotation with ammo. Both were done to make dancer feel more unique.

Machinist got reworked and while it was fun for me there are so many problems with the job that have persisted since 5.0. Like auto crossbow not resetting gauss round and ricochet, no aoe battery spender, flame thrower being a level 70 cap skill you want to avoid using 99% of the time and worst of all its numbers are underwhelming for a selfish dps but if it gets buffed Bard and dancer get locked out. Consequently when a party plays well a Machinist falls behind Bard or dancer buffs in damage contribution.

Bard feels more complete in dawntrail thankfully but it felt awful going from stormblood to shadowbringers.

[Hanzz96]

Why don't you follow Yoshi's advice and go play ultimates if you're after difficulty and challenge? Like, this argument has been made fun of since forever because it was replied to somebody complaining about the gameplay of a role, but when it comes to challenge in the way you envision them, that's exactly what difficulty modes (ex, savage, ultimate, criterion, quantum, etc) are for?

And again, I'm saying this as someone that would greatly benefit from wall removal. I just don't believe it's the solution because i'm a radical.



To further on this I'm on the mind that SE completely broke down the fundamentals of the trinity when they decided in ShB to completely remove any kind of resource based gameplay, which was the true constraints that allowed for a functional trinity system in the first place. And people don't talk about about this if ever. Yes, they made tanks absolutely lopsided but even in ShB when it wasn't the case yet - except perhaps for WAR - the system was already collapsing under a lack of systems to make up for the loss. If there is no more resources to manage at the party level, if there is no sustain involved, if the party DPS to kill down a mob pack doesn't matter anymore, if defensive resources don't run out, if positioning doesn't drain resources anymore, then we're left with a system that's lost half its meaning already.

I do raid ultimate and savage. I have cleared a few ultimates, FRU on patch and have done like 5 savage tiers. That doesn't change the fact that normal dungeons are too scripted and boring.

[Valence]

I do raid ultimate and savage. I have cleared a few ultimates, FRU on patch and have done like 5 savage tiers. That doesn't change the fact that normal dungeons are too scripted and boring.

Okay. I'm not gonna pretend they're not boring but to my eyes all the pve is boring and excruciating to go through anyway for different reasons.
What I'm pointing out is that you're trying to change every scale of difficulty so that it personally suits you. Like, if you want everything to be savage+, be my guest, but I don't think the game is gonna last long after that.
Like, past a point you'll have to accept to stay "in your lane" so to speak because no, not everything can be savage+. People aren't coming to your own preferred content difficulty/type (savage+) and asking that it should be watered down because too hard - or even made a lot harder that you personally can accept.

And complaining that dungeons are too scripted - which I wholeheartedly agree with - is a little weird seeing that savage+ is even worse in that regard to a point where only a single solution to every puzzle is accepted else everybody wipes.

[Doopliss]

[Cut due to length.]

How is it stretching the truth? 5 minutes off of a 20 minute dungeon is 25% faster. That's not insignificant. If you don't want to look at percentages, then other people have done it for you. For literal years there has been concrete proof that pulling more mobs and AoEing them all at the same time makes dungeons noticeably faster, because ultimately you're spreading out the actual potency of your AoE attack all at once (meaning you're doing much more damage overall), instead of having to cut your attack potency in half between different mob packs. The entire reason AoEs exist in the first place is to make taking down groups go faster.

You're trying to turn this into a matter of opinion when it's not--while also trying to downplay by not-so-subtly implying anyone who likes to do things such as compare percentages has to be somebody with an emotional fuse ready to blow? Come on.

Okay, what is an opinion is that that amount of time doesn't matter to you. That's completely fair. It doesn't matter to most people and people judging you for that would be dumb--but nowhere in my reply did I claim people had to play this way. People were, again, seldom "forced" to speedrun through a dungeon when the option to do so actually existed, and most of the arguments here come down to a matter of pretense that the all-encompassing Toxic Player will harass and dominate the poor, struggling Anxious Player. But the truth of the matter is that the majority of people were more than willing to compensate for other players when these stagnant dungeon walls did not exist for the first 6 years of this game's lifespan.

It may not make it fun to you, but, I don't know, as a Healer who used to get enjoyment out of testing my ability to DPS as much as possible and keep the tank alive through pulls that actually did any damage, I have a strong feeling it would make it slightly more fun for me and similar players. It was rewarding to keep them up and make the run go faster through particularly large combinations of mobs.

Also I don't say this as somebody who wants to try overly hard all the time; I've made my opinion about that clear in threads past. I've always compensated for players when they asked or if they seemed to be struggling. I would continue to do so if this change happened, and I suspect much the same of most other players. In fact I would appreciate each dungeon run actually feeling a little different from one another.

So, IMO, saying this doesn't matter is ultimately coming down to the same "it's just flavor, removing it won't matter" opinions that got us in this super dull spot today. Little things add up. Options and reasons to communicate matter. People feel their removal for a reason.