Remove the wall between the monster groups before each boss so we can pull all

[Hanzz96]

Thank you for dropping the mask

No mask I am just sick of this game losing any challenge because some people will always find things too hard and not everyone can be accommodated. Video games have challenges by nature and if you want to single pull we already have an NPC mode. Removing walls will just make things interesting for everyone else who wants to not drift off in dungeons

[FeyFavilla]

No mask I am just sick of this game losing any challenge because some people will always find things too hard and not everyone can be accommodated. Video games have challenges by nature and if you want to single pull we already have an NPC mode. Removing walls will just make things interesting for everyone else who wants to not drift off in dungeons

Ah yes. Ye olde "You are inconveniencing me so I will insult you until you go play on your own."
Wait why is nobody online why are queues so long i don't understand?

[Gyson]

I don't see the point in removing the temporary walls between groups. Once the walls are removed you limit the player's choice to either pulling everything or dealing with constant criticism from someone in the group. Both have the potential to slow down the entire run; in the former case you risk introducing avoidable wipes (which are a complete waste of time), and in the latter case people are spending more time arguing with each other in chat and less time dealing damage to the mobs.

The reality is this entire urge to pull huge packs is (in FFXIV) more of an overrated gimmick and less about real efficiency. Currently, the difference between pulling one pack at a time and two packs to the wall in these dungeons is minuscule. I occasionally pull one pack at a time whenever someone requests it (usually if it's someones first time in that dungeon or a healer who just wants a relaxed run), and doing single-pulls adds less than five minutes to the entire dungeon. The amount of time a run takes has much more to do with how well the various players in your group are performing at their roles, and much less to do with how many packs are being pulled at once.

Yet, there is a point where pulling too many packs can lead to wipes, and then you're adding to the duration of the run rather than making it shorter (especially if DPS can't annihilate those packs before the tank runs out of mitigation tricks). More mobs can also result in more AOEs to avoid, leading to more melee downtime (either because of dodging in and out or dying), plus the healer is spending more time healing and less time dealing damage.

I don't understand the "challenge" arguments. Trash in dungeons is not even remotely challenging and adding more trash to a single pull isn't going to change that. You either have enough healing to overcome the damage and enough DPS to kill the mobs before the tank runs out of mitigation buffs, or you don't. For the DPS in the party, how is killing a pack of twenty mobs any more challenging than killing a pack of ten - we're still pressing the same buttons in either case. Dodging AOEs or making sure you're behind a barrier at specific moments is the extent of "challenging" content you'll see in trash mobs these days. When's the last time anyone has assigned priority marks to mobs in a pull? Tactics and real challenges, like expecting a party of cats to focus on a specific mob before it one-shots the tank, have gone the way of the dodo along with everyone's attention span and ability to problem solve.

[Doopliss]

I'll be the guy complaining about how dreadfully boring healer is to play again, lol. It sucks ass and I hate that casual content now has to = braindead. I genuinely think tanks that are willing to do the full pull before the first boss in Mt. Gulg are fun to play with. I also appreciated Aurum Vale's earliest iterations back when I was a sprout tank because it helped me learn how to section off large mobs and understand positioning and limitations.

Pulling wall-to-wall was never that egregious and as somebody who wasted way too much time in this game, the friction people are claiming that happened is way overblown. Yes there would be people who would whine and try kicking others when they got aggravated by somebody not keeping up, but it was honestly the rarer case.

When I was new to healer and they still had Cleric Stance, I just straight-up would let people die all the time to test out how far I could go with stance-dancing. I would be transparent that I was trying to learn. As a tank I would take the extra dungeon paths to get more EXP with mild grumbling at the worst. 11 years in this game of playing like an on-and-off dumbass and I have never been kicked from a dungeon.

If a healer or tank couldn't handle large pulls it's more than likely the other players would slow down to accommodate. And this was when playing the two roles actually required any semblance of consciousness in a dungeon. These elitist boogeymen people are talking about were not the majority by a long shot. I mean, hell, even back then the actual majority of White Mages were too scared to Holy and people just dealt with it.

(Also why are we just like, lying about math when it comes to efficiency? In old dungeons you could literally shave off 3-5 minutes of a 15-minute dungeon if you played fast and well. That is not a small percentage. You can look at completion time in your chat box to compare.)

Anyway the gated pulls being 1-2 pack of mobs at the most is one of the biggest things I dislike in current dungeon design. It's genuinely mind-numbing to the point it's aggravating, particularly because there's also zero friction with jobs now, too. I don't understand why people are so scared about this idea when today you have a billion instant heals and tanks are basically unkillable in normal content.

I know this MMO has gathered people who are now unfamiliar with the slightest amount of gameplay friction since SHB, but casual content should allow people to play in different ways, even if they seem "subtle" on paper. I promise it is ok to not play at max efficiency. It's ok to risk dying in order to learn. Most people who are going to bitch at you in-game are not the majority and are also probably considered annoying by others. But people should also be able to wall-to-wall if they want to without boring, arbitrary gating.

[Hanzz96]

Ah yes. Ye olde "You are inconveniencing me so I will insult you until you go play on your own."
Wait why is nobody online why are queues so long i don't understand?

Dumbing things down for everyone is actively alienating players who want to enjoy the combat and be creative with their job and kits, something that removing walls in dungeons would do.

If the gameplay is too hard then trust is right there. I don't understand the issue here.

[FeyFavilla]

Dumbing things down for everyone is actively alienating players who want to enjoy the combat and be creative with their job and kits, something that removing walls in dungeons would do.

If the gameplay is too hard then trust is right there. I don't understand the issue here.

The problem is not the difficulty. I don't think anyone would ever argue FFXIV dungeons were ever really difficult. FFXIV's community, I guess I have to repeat, is as friendly and chill overall as it is because of the way the playstyle has been for many years now. It attracts a whole different kind of player than WoW or more instance based games would, and if you take this away you will inevitably force the people who prefer to not have this kind of friction out the door. They made the change to wall instances into segments for a reason. With the hike in difficulty for endgame even entrance-level content we are already seeing the toxicity that comes with that kind of thing, the exact attitude I had tried to avoid after ditching WoW years ago. It would be far wiser to just make the runs more interesting and the jobs engaging to play. That would be a win for everyone instead of gutting the dungeons further by turning them into a competition who can drag the new sprouts through them the fastest.

[Doopliss]

The problem is not the difficulty. I don't think anyone would ever argue FFXIV dungeons were ever really difficult. FFXIV's community, I guess I have to repeat, is as friendly and chill overall as it is because of the way the playstyle has been for many years now. It attracts a whole different kind of player than WoW or more instance based games would, and if you take this away you will inevitably force the people who prefer to not have this kind of friction out the door. They made the change to wall instances into segments for a reason. With the hike in difficulty for endgame even entrance-level content we are already seeing the toxicity that comes with that kind of thing, the exact attitude I had tried to avoid after ditching WoW years ago. It would be far wiser to just make the runs more interesting and the jobs engaging to play. That would be a win for everyone instead of gutting the dungeons further by turning them into a competition who can drag the new sprouts through them the fastest.

This is such an exaggeration of what would happen that I am honestly wondering if you have played before they dumbed down dungeons this much. They neutered dungeons for Trusts; which is the same reason they neutered everything else: To get money from players who want to play a single-player RPG lol.

It was way more chill than WoW ever was even when this mild friction existed. If anything there is more toxicity now because the gap between casual content and endgame content is so huge these days that there is zero build-up or bridging between them. And ultimately it’s because of that why queues are dead. Casual content is incredibly boring and any real endgame stuff is so far away from it in difficulty that casual players are too afraid to do anything else currently (and much more rightfully so). Not because of some toxic boogeyman waiting to get mad at them for dying in a dungeon. The original design philosophy for FFXIV dungeons was still extremely forgiving compared to WoW, so those sort of extreme personality types seldom existed in them in the first place.

Removing their arbitrary walls wouldn’t make the dungeons more difficult, but the option would make them more engaging (which is a difference regardless of how small it seems) for some people—me included. As it is now making everyone play boring content in a forever time-stagnant way that requires zero conversation makes fewer people actually bother to queue up in an MMO; almost nobody I know runs roulettes anymore for this reason, and the vast majority of them are casual players.

[Zered]

The problem is not the difficulty. I don't think anyone would ever argue FFXIV dungeons were ever really difficult. FFXIV's community, I guess I have to repeat, is as friendly and chill overall as it is because of the way the playstyle has been for many years now. It attracts a whole different kind of player than WoW or more instance based games would, and if you take this away you will inevitably force the people who prefer to not have this kind of friction out the door. They made the change to wall instances into segments for a reason. With the hike in difficulty for endgame even entrance-level content we are already seeing the toxicity that comes with that kind of thing, the exact attitude I had tried to avoid after ditching WoW years ago. It would be far wiser to just make the runs more interesting and the jobs engaging to play. That would be a win for everyone instead of gutting the dungeons further by turning them into a competition who can drag the new sprouts through them the fastest.

The argument is basically: "let's keep the dungeons so mind numbingly boring and deprive any choice or freedom to play how people want so everyone is too lethargic and jaded to care enough to be toxic"
No thanks. What kind of worthless gameplay experience even is this? Who is it entertaining? Does anyone actually enjoy walking a bit then spamming aoe 1-2-3, rinse and repeat every single day?
How about people grow a spine and some skin that isn't as thin as 1-ply tissue and using the mute button instead of acting like wiping or having someone whine is the end of the world.

[FeyFavilla]

Okay let's engage with the idea, say we remove all walls.
Now what?
Is the instance any less boring? It's the same dungeon, except now it is even more forgettable than before because you don't ever have to stop until the boss.
New players doing the MSQ will be left running behind not getting a taste of the experience at all. Big quit moment for fresh blood right here.

And then, when you have a bunch of boring instances that you can barrel through the complaint will be that there is no substance to the dungeon roulette anymore. They will have to cut the rewards for it for less time investment as well, leaving even less people to queue up. This suggestion over short or long would lead to a decline in people participating. That, on low pop realms, would be a death sentence to players trying to just do their dailies. This is not a solution for the dungeons boring yall out of your mind.
But, judging by the attitude in this thread, I fear I might be speaking to the exact type of people who do not respect folks wanting to take it slow to begin with so I'll leave it at this, then. I hope it does get implemented and yall have to deal with the consequences like the people who screamed for balance until all jobs were mushed down into the same grey pile.

[Doopliss]

Okay let's engage with the idea, say we remove all walls.
Now what?
Is the instance any less boring? It's the same dungeon, except now it is even more forgettable than before because you don't ever have to stop until the boss.
New players doing the MSQ will be left running behind not getting a taste of the experience at all. Big quit moment for fresh blood right here.

And then, when you have a bunch of boring instances that you can barrel through the complaint will be that there is no substance to the dungeon roulette anymore. They will have to cut the rewards for it for less time investment as well, leaving even less people to queue up. This suggestion over short or long would lead to a decline in people participating. That, on low pop realms, would be a death sentence to players trying to just do their dailies. This is not a solution for the dungeons boring yall out of your mind.
But, judging by the attitude in this thread, I fear I might be speaking to the exact type of people who do not respect folks wanting to take it slow to begin with so I'll leave it at this, then. I hope it does get implemented and yall have to deal with the consequences like the people who screamed for balance until all jobs were mushed down into the same grey pile.

This is such an incredibly bad faith take--and for somebody who complains about people not reading their posts, you certainly don't read others'. Also there is literally no substance in the dungeon roulette as it is; the suggestion here at least gives people an option to do it in a way that might be even a little more fun for them, because, rather than what you're claiming, larger pulls (which means more incoming damage and sometimes more AoEs to dodge) do require a little more thought. And considering that we have been able to do dungeons without healers easily since EW, having this option might even make them more efficient to bring along again! Wow!

But I'll take this as an answer for "yes I literally have no idea how the game successfully functioned with a near identical community before SHB and I will continue to close my eyes when it comes to any regard for that."