Alternative solving the housing crysis: Sanctuary AND wards

[Shistar]

Personally, i think they should just leave the current housing as is. But give a new system for instanced housing one with much more customisation options. A realm in a teapot if you were. Tie some rewards to it and you have instanced housing as a brand new content type.

That'd be lovely, don't get me wrong, but we're back to the same issue as before... why would I ever bother maintaining my medium in a prime spot that costed me 20M and over 7 months of bidding, then? Do I get to have both at the same time, or what's the catch?

[Kytrin]

I think it makes sense to make it be a housing interior that can be moved around, which is more or less what I mentioned in one of the first messages of this thread as something that's been discussed before. In that sense, I love the idea!! This basically fixes the main conundrum we were having in previous conversations about not everyone wanting to live in a tropical island in the middle of nowhere. In that sense, I believe having it occupy the same "slot" as a plot house would be best, especially considering townhouses sound like a premium version of an apartment in the town, but not as fancy as say, a mansion with its garden. Which leads me into...

Yes, that would very neatly solve the problem of people wanting to live in different places/climates. Which is completely understandable.

I will say that the whole townhome idea isn't really meant to be a 'fancy' apartment. It's genuinely meant to be an alternative to ward houses for those who don't care about the whole neighborhood aspect that Yoshi-P loves so much, and I would very much like to see apartments themselves get a much needed overhaul where you can upgrade space, floor plans, add balconies, etc. The issue is that instanced housing puts us automatically in mind of current apartments, so we're pulling elements from both and need to more clearly define things.

How about this...

Apartments get an overhaul where they can upgrade to the equivalent of something around a small in size, and can add features like floor plans, balconies/yards, etc.

Townhomes can upgrade to the equivalent of something around a medium in size and can ALSO add floor plans, balconies/yards, etc. Their premium location makes them more expensive (perhaps approximately the cost of a small or medium house to purchase and more spent on upgrades?) but they also get all the same perks as having a medium size ward house and are on the auto-demolition timer.

Ward Houses remain the only housing option that allows for a full upgrade to a large size and can have all the current perks of housing plus automatically getting whatever is coming in the pipeline.

Would that be a reasonable balance?

No, you're absolutely right, I was so into talking about this hierarchy stuff that I failed to mention I fully agree that it's not an unreasonable ask and that it sounds great! Buuuut here's my next batch of questions: When you transfer to a ward plot, does this mean you keep this interior garden portion despite also obtaining an outdoor garden, or does it poof out of existence? If it isn't gone, would ward houses be able to upgrade their interiors with yard space, or would they be forced to invest in a townhouse first, then move it over to a ward plot?

My solution is quite simple: Give these interior yards, or maybe more accurately for my idea, Balconies to apartments instead! This will make them more desirable, with unique layouts that townhouses/plot houses can't have because they already got their outdoors + gardening. I would say, to keep things fair, to not allow gardening in your balcony (due to having downstairs neighbors and such...) but the amount of flowerpots you can place scales up with how fancy your place gets. You can place outdoor furnishings in this balcony normally, but now we're reaching our next problem: How in the world would the game understand apartment vs. balcony space? As we know, indoor and outdoor furnishings are clearly labeled and stored separately... maybe we need a third category for balconies? I would imagine they wouldn't let us plant a whole tree in your balcony, so some things might not make the cut (but I imagine most things should)

If we're seriously insistent about having it for townhouses/ward plots, I think a terrace would be the most appropriate. But considering you'd be able to move this place between the city and the housing district, maybe the view would change based on we're you're currently settled? Tons of work for sure, but I can't resist a beautiful view... and I already imagine our floated items glitching into our terrace floors if it's directly above our top floor lol

So see above for my thoughts on apartment upgrades and who should get balconies/yards lol. I think instead of scaling the flowerpots (which fundamentally grow different things than the garden patches) it might be better to say that once you hit the maximum upgradable size, you can then put down 1-2 garden patches if you want.

For the outdoor vs. indoor space separation, we could probably resolve that by having a door you can exit through to get to that space or something. My inspiration for the whole idea is the Inn in Kugane where you can look out the window and see the lovely rock garden beyond and some of the other Kugane buildings where there are clearly yards and other such green spaces in what are obviously penthouses. We can clearly have space like that in an instance, so surely we can actually go out there and customize it however we like without it affecting our neighbor any more than glitching stuff in our apartments currently affects our neighbors.

Also, don't forget that when you move all of your stuff is put back into storage and none of your current decorating remains up. You'll have to do it all over according to wherever you've moved to.

ABSOLUTELY. If we can go insane, we can even consider weather changes! NPCs with umbrellas! (our compass always marks sunny weather while inside a house regardless of the outside weather, so they'd need to apply the same weather table for housing for this to work, I assume? This would likely also affect light levels inside the house, making for some seriously cozy rainy evenings...)

Lol I don't think lighting levels in the house would be affected any more than rain outside keeps my windows from being full sun inside now. We'll still have to have some separation between the two spaces to keep things clean. Love the idea of NPCs with umbrellas and such depending on the weather though!

That's understandable. There's a very difficult balance in making a feature useful for those who need this accesibility yet hard to abuse for those who don't...
My idea intended to stop people from going on such long breaks as 8 months. It would be 1 patch hiatus, 1 patch you have to be there and it alternates. I think longer hiatuses could potentially be arranged, but to prevent abuse they'd have to appoint a GM to it and of course, to keep track of it since it's a special exception.

Unless it is my turn to be sleepy and I am misunderstanding?

I may have been a bit confusing in my attempt to explain...

My proposal is that auto-demolition timers be lengthened to 4 months just in general. Then, once every 16/20/24 months (or whatever number divisible by 4 you prefer), you can ask for a hiatus that will give you an extra 4 months on your demolition timer. It wouldn't be something that people could just spam constantly.

But I do see where you're coming from. Though my question then is, how long do you think the auto-demolition timer should be under normal circumstances? 45 days is really too short for a lot of people when life kicks them in the face.

I think they could have this system only affect personal housing to begin with. FCs have a much easier time maintaining their house because every single member contributes to resetting the timer, but this is not the case for tenants, and if we pair it with the idea of separating the workshop from the housing ward competition should be more even between people moving in and out of wards and FCs who actually want a house for the house itself and not the workshop occupying spots. This would also be more in line with YoshiP's idea of wards being this communal space for multiple active FCs to mingle + some personal owners who have also proven they use/care about their housing enough to maintain a ward plot.

Yeah, okay... I agree with all of that.

[Khryseis_Astra]

That'd be lovely, don't get me wrong, but we're back to the same issue as before... why would I ever bother maintaining my medium in a prime spot that costed me 20M and over 7 months of bidding, then? Do I get to have both at the same time, or what's the catch?

Honestly it’s the “consolation prize” to make up for the fact that there’s not enough houses to go around. The “perks” of ward housing that everyone always lists whenever they say ward housing is superior should be enough to make up for the fact that someone else can have an equivalent housing experience, just on its own and tucked away behind a directory. And when I say equivalent, I mean an actual, fully functional housing plot, indoors and out. Generic scenery for the neighborhood, and eventually maybe they make more “background skins” with different scenery/locations, just like they add new housing skins every now and then. My reasoning for this is twofold: one, it’s easier for it to actually be accomplished if they can just copy/paste the existing system to create single instanced housing plots. No need to reinvent the wheel, creating a new system from scratch. Two, I don’t buy into any “hierarchy” or “prestige” when it comes to housing. It’s a game feature, not a prize won by any skill, and it’s only the artificial scarcity and RNG luck of the lotto that determines who gets a plot and who doesn’t.

Or to put it another way, the ward system has limitations that instanced doesn’t have… the ward plots will always be subject to auto-demo because they are taking up permanent space, making the lack of auto-demo a perk of the instanced plot. Those who want the ultra-rare M or L plot locations, high visibility and/or venues will prefer the wards regardless. Those who just want a place of their own to decorate would have it.

[Kytrin]

Honestly it’s the “consolation prize” to make up for the fact that there’s not enough houses to go around. The “perks” of ward housing that everyone always lists whenever they say ward housing is superior should be enough to make up for the fact that someone else can have an equivalent housing experience, just on its own and tucked away behind a directory. And when I say equivalent, I mean an actual, fully functional housing plot, indoors and out. Generic scenery for the neighborhood, and eventually maybe they make more “background skins” with different scenery/locations, just like they add new housing skins every now and then. My reasoning for this is twofold: one, it’s easier for it to actually be accomplished if they can just copy/paste the existing system to create single instanced housing plots. No need to reinvent the wheel, creating a new system from scratch. Two, I don’t buy into any “hierarchy” or “prestige” when it comes to housing. It’s a game feature, not a prize won by any skill, and it’s only the artificial scarcity and RNG luck of the lotto that determines who gets a plot and who doesn’t.

Or to put it another way, the ward system has limitations that instanced doesn’t have… the ward plots will always be subject to auto-demo because they are taking up permanent space, making the lack of auto-demo a perk of the instanced plot. Those who want the ultra-rare M or L plot locations, high visibility and/or venues will prefer the wards regardless. Those who just want a place of their own to decorate would have it.

You've got some pretty good points there...

[Shistar]

I will say that the whole townhome idea isn't really meant to be a 'fancy' apartment.

Oh yes sorry I do understand that, I just used that term to describe where they would possibly sit in the hierarchy. Nicer than an apartment, but no outdoor garden/ward to go with it. So it's comfortably in the middle while being a very solid option.

Apartments get an overhaul where they can upgrade to the equivalent of something around a small in size, and can add features like floor plans, balconies/yards, etc.

Townhomes can upgrade to the equivalent of something around a medium in size and can ALSO add floor plans, balconies/yards, etc. Their premium location makes them more expensive (perhaps approximately the cost of a small or medium house to purchase and more spent on upgrades?) but they also get all the same perks as having a medium size ward house and are on the auto-demolition timer.

Ward Houses remain the only housing option that allows for a full upgrade to a large size and can have all the current perks of housing plus automatically getting whatever is coming in the pipeline.

Would that be a reasonable balance?

That sounds very nice, yeah! I fully agree with this.

So see above for my thoughts on apartment upgrades and who should get balconies/yards lol. I think instead of scaling the flowerpots (which fundamentally grow different things than the garden patches) it might be better to say that once you hit the maximum upgradable size, you can then put down 1-2 garden patches if you want.

The reason I brought up flowerpots is because it's the only method of indoor gardening we have, garden patches have always been exclusive to ward housing due to the outdoor yard. Maybe terraces could have a raised garden bed upgrade you can add? Or it could be simply an item you can place, so ward houses could also make use of it. I think that if townhouses can grow plants on the terrace, it should be at max two patches like you said, and most likely only unlocked after most of the expensive upgrades are paid for. My reason for the pushback on this is that outdoor gardening goes hand in hand with workshops, so you can imagine the market cropping up from people getting unlimited access to Voidrake and Althyk Lavender (among other useful crops).... we're just moving the RMT sellers from FC houses to townhouses if we allow this. And if townhouses are limited, we're back to square one on the accessibility issues...

For the outdoor vs. indoor space separation, we could probably resolve that by having a door you can exit through to get to that space or something. My inspiration for the whole idea is the Inn in Kugane where you can look out the window and see the lovely rock garden beyond and some of the other Kugane buildings where there are clearly yards and other such green spaces in what are obviously penthouses. We can clearly have space like that in an instance, so surely we can actually go out there and customize it however we like without it affecting our neighbor any more than glitching stuff in our apartments currently affects our neighbors.

Okay, so by separating the indoor and outdoor through a door we're solving all the storage issues, yes. I do love the Kugane Inn a lot... I'm just thinking how would our outdoor furniture display exactly when looking out from inside? Do they not display? is our balcony window strategically pointing away from the area we would be able to furnish? Do they have to fully display at all times, even when there is no player there? What if there's a player inside and one outside? They wouldn't be able to see each other due to the issues mentioned before by YoshiP, so I'm just wondering if you had any specific ideas on how this would look like in practice.

The reason I was talking about items glitching through the floor was under the assumption it was all one instance with no separations, so disregard that. By putting a door, we're resolving pretty much all issues related to funky item placement.

Also, don't forget that when you move all of your stuff is put back into storage and none of your current decorating remains up. You'll have to do it all over according to wherever you've moved to.

Agree. So having the balcony be separated by a door would keep both storage types cleanly separated.

Lol I don't think lighting levels in the house would be affected any more than rain outside keeps my windows from being full sun inside now. We'll still have to have some separation between the two spaces to keep things clean. Love the idea of NPCs with umbrellas and such depending on the weather though!

Haha, true, I was just dreaming of more dynamic lighting than our on/off switch every 12 hours, with no in-between. Then again, I use my house to escape Lavender Bed's dreadful weather, so... maybe it is best it stays as it is.

I may have been a bit confusing in my attempt to explain...

My proposal is that auto-demolition timers be lengthened to 4 months just in general. Then, once every 16/20/24 months (or whatever number divisible by 4 you prefer), you can ask for a hiatus that will give you an extra 4 months on your demolition timer. It wouldn't be something that people could just spam constantly.

But I do see where you're coming from. Though my question then is, how long do you think the auto-demolition timer should be under normal circumstances? 45 days is really too short for a lot of people when life kicks them in the face.

I think 45 days is too short, that is for sure. 60 days would be the bare minimum for ward houses in my opinion, since while we have to consider the possibility of the owner getting kicked in the face by life, we also have to consider the homeless player waiting for a house to open up... What about this?

Ward houses: 60-80 days - after that, the house would return to being a townhouse, automatically transported to the nearest town (eg. If your townhouse was originally Ul'dahn but you moved to a ward house in Kugane, upon demolition it'd become a Kugane townhouse - this is mostly to prevent people from wondering where in the world their house may have ended up in if they forgot their original townhouse's location before they moved). Ward houses are a finite resource, so keeping it on a shorter leash gives people a chance to see some movement.
Townhouses: 3-4 months is good for this, I believe. I'm leaning more towards 3 months if it's in line with ward houses being 60 days and 4 months if ward houses are 80 days. This leads me to my next question: If your ward house is demolished and it becomes a townhouse, does your timer reset back to zero, or does it pick up from 60-80 and continues counting? To me, it'd make sense if it resetted to zero, since it's technically moved, and gives us some wiggle space while keeping the autodemolition timer relatively short for those who are waiting their turn. This means that if you buy a ward house, you're essentially boosting your demolition timer by 60-80 days, which is an interesting added bonus to make them attractive for private owners.
Then again, if this is technically the instanced version, do we really need an autodemolition timer? What use would it serve if this type of housing were truly unlimited like island sanctuaries?
Apartments: Stay forever - but also a limited resource. Current behavior and it works well for all servers except extremely overcrowded, legacy servers such as Balmung. If anything, maybe apartments that go unused for 2+ years should be purged every new expansion? Most people come back every expansion, so provided you visit your apartment once during your resub time, you should be golden. Maybe this feature would only go in use in servers where there aren't any more available apartments and leave the rest as they are.

Honestly it’s the “consolation prize” to make up for the fact that there’s not enough houses to go around. The “perks” of ward housing that everyone always lists whenever they say ward housing is superior should be enough to make up for the fact that someone else can have an equivalent housing experience, just on its own and tucked away behind a directory. And when I say equivalent, I mean an actual, fully functional housing plot, indoors and out. Generic scenery for the neighborhood, and eventually maybe they make more “background skins” with different scenery/locations, just like they add new housing skins every now and then. My reasoning for this is twofold: one, it’s easier for it to actually be accomplished if they can just copy/paste the existing system to create single instanced housing plots. No need to reinvent the wheel, creating a new system from scratch. Two, I don’t buy into any “hierarchy” or “prestige” when it comes to housing. It’s a game feature, not a prize won by any skill, and it’s only the artificial scarcity and RNG luck of the lotto that determines who gets a plot and who doesn’t.

Or to put it another way, the ward system has limitations that instanced doesn’t have… the ward plots will always be subject to auto-demo because they are taking up permanent space, making the lack of auto-demo a perk of the instanced plot. Those who want the ultra-rare M or L plot locations, high visibility and/or venues will prefer the wards regardless. Those who just want a place of their own to decorate would have it.

Don't get me wrong, of course I'd love that... but it is unfair to those who have gone through the effort to obtain and maintain a ward plot. If you remove all the perks from a ward plot besides... existing in a ward, which forces them to maintain their house on a shorter leash... the hierarchy the game has established since the beginning would fall apart. And this hierarchy isn't only in housing, it rules the entirety of the game. Content is placed in a difficulty hierarchy (normal/MSQ -> hard -> EX -> savage/criterion -> ultimate), gear is sorted into iLVL, players are sorted into rankings of varying prestige. We can't escape the nature of the MMO structure, as much as we'd like to. Housing's limited nature has made it into a competition as we currently stand, but we're here to talk ideas for a solution that is realistic and fits within the game's established rules so we hopefully have a chance to see it added. Of course I want unlimited housing for all, I would only benefit from it! I don't win anything gatekeeping any of you from owning a house, but if we don't have it right now it's obvious they either can't or there is something else stopping them. It's impossible for them to have never considered instanced housing, so for now and until they prove otherwise, I will assume they have been reading us (or came up with the idea on their own) and either had to discard it due to limitations or they simply don't like the idea of leaving current house owners in the dust.

Those who only want a house to decorate and do not care for neighbors, placement, etc. etc. would have to pay for their benefits somewhere else, as all housing types currently do in one way or another. Otherwise we're just asking to place something on top of the highest point of the hierarchy, and make it basically free (because let's be real, gil is not really the problem here. I bought my 20M house from roulettes alone). I don't consider this a consolation prize at all...

So what we're proposing is placing instanced housing in the middle of the hierarchy between apartments and ward housing, benefitting from almost all housing features and being on a longer autodemolition timer, but faces some limitations one would only overcome by moving into a ward plot + they're tucked away from the rest of the world. This should be more than plenty for those who only want to decorate a nice place, as you can enjoy the grand majority of housing features to almost their full extent. If you're serious about housing, you also have an "endgame" in the form of ward housing for extra upgrades, bigger layouts, more gardening, etc.

My point is: Of course I want unlimited housing for everyone. But we would be smarter to think of a more realistic improvement to current housing since it is clear that, as we currently are, it is not possible. Otherwise they would have already done it!

[Solowing]

My proposal is that auto-demolition timers be lengthened to 4 months just in general. Then, once every 16/20/24 months (or whatever number divisible by 4 you prefer), you can ask for a hiatus that will give you an extra 4 months on your demolition timer. It wouldn't be something that people could just spam constantly.

Plot turn-over would stall. If its a limited supply thing. The demo timer has to be long enough to not feel overly restrictive, but also has to assure the plot is used on some level within reason, and if not it needs to go back into the pool of available plots.

But yea put a plot on Island Sanctuary, it trades the visibility for accessibility. Venue owner can have their invite only parties or use their Apt as venues until they come into a ward plot.

I get to have my little quiet neighbourhood, with people that can occasionally come and go. People who want to decorate their own little private domicle where they will not be harassed, and venue aspiring can work their way up through the ward system. From the Apts to a Plot.

[Khryseis_Astra]

If you remove all the perks from a ward plot besides... existing in a ward, which forces them to maintain their house on a shorter leash... the hierarchy the game has established since the beginning would fall apart. And this hierarchy isn’t only in housing, it rules the entirety of the game.

The difference is content “hierarchy” is based on personal skill, where access to housing is based on luck. As it is, it’s the design of ward housing that has backed them into a corner. If you want the premium location for in-game real estate, auto demo is the price you pay for that. Others having access to an instanced plot lacking that level of visibility and exclusivity get to opt out of auto-demo precisely because it takes nothing away from anyone else in order for them to have it.

Another feature I’d also like to see in an instanced system, is having auto “demo” for ward housing, instead convert your plot to an instanced plot, saving both your furnishing layout just as you left it, as well as the items, eliminating the need to claim them separately by the post-demo deadline we have now.

So what we’re proposing is placing instanced housing in the middle of the hierarchy between apartments and ward housing, benefitting from almost all housing features and being on a longer autodemolition timer, but faces some limitations one would only overcome by moving into a ward plot + they’re tucked away from the rest of the world. This should be more than plenty for those who only want to decorate a nice place, as you can enjoy the grand majority of housing features to almost their full extent. If you’re serious about housing, you also have an “endgame” in the form of ward housing for extra upgrades, bigger layouts, more gardening, etc.

The problem with making instanced “less than” in comparison to ward housing, is that instanced housing is functionally the better system. You can have more features with instanced than wards just by their very nature, with less server drain. It’s why we’re getting all these interior layouts and remodeling, because the insides of houses and apartments are instanced. And also why the island can hold so many more outdoor furnishings than a mansion plot can.

Again, the hierarchy here is based on luck, not any kind of skill or effort beyond simple persistence. By watering down instanced to keep wards “superior,” you’re essentially limiting the addition of new features to housing, many of which other competing MMOs already enjoy.

They have given us the wards and thus far they seem committed to them. But if they actually want everyone to have equal access to ALL forms of housing (as paying customers should have every right to expect), then their two options are scrap the ward system and redesign it in a way that allow for wards to be created on an as-needed basis, or keep the existing system and add an instanced option to supplement the lack of supply. Option 1 forces everyone to start over and requires a lot more development resources to accomplish. Option 2 allows them to future proof housing to scale with player demand, while basically using the same system they already have.

[Burmecia]

/somethingsomething

[NightHour]

Thank you!

Maybe if we can flesh out a workable enough system, Square will adopt it!

in 10-15 years maybe

[Kytrin]

in 10-15 years maybe

Hey now, let's not say the cynical part out loud lol. We all know the chances, but y'know... we can keep our fingers crossed anyway!