"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

[BlisteringFrost]

This thread is basically why we'll never see regions opened to each other JP is very much YTYP Tank = King attitude that in content often see Tanks/healers sit back & let DPS get beat into Oblivion by mobs/bosses for pulling first & mostly only provoke if another player rips aggro since not that players fault that other person pulled & often you'll see DPS puller get vote kicked from content.
If the Tank was one pack we're one packing if they want two packs we're two packing & if want wall to wall we're wall to walling it's always Tanks pace here & those who don't play by that tend to not last long on JP servers, like F some times we might have situations in Alliance sit there for 1-5 minutes because B maybe doesn't want to MT & other two maybe don't either or pay attention so we actually tend to wait outside of CT series very rare see DPS pull.

That's a case of understanding the concept of fair punishment for unfair treatment towards your other party members. Literally every other MMO the party will immediately die if you don't let the tank control the pace of the dungeon. It's literally why it's common courtesy to let the tank control the pace. Half the dungeons (literally, half) in XIV still apply here too. Basic mobs will run a DPS or healer down if too many are pulled by a non-tank. The lower the level you go the worse this gets because Healers end up only having one proper tool and if the tanks damage intake with cooldowns is outpacing it.... whelp.... There you go. In WoW you only ever see someone pulling for a tank if it's a very small pack that they can clearly handle and would want to grab anyway, then they run into the tank AOE so the mobs get spanked. When is this not true? Someone face pulls. It happens. It's very rare someone gets mad about it. It happens sometimes. People deal with it and move on.

People who insist on their way is the only correct way -- which is "I'll just pull for the tank then if they don't want to go faster!" -- have already lost the plot.

[Supersnow845]

Three people just willfully ignoring the "However, you cannot legally use the system to harass or punish a player for simply being new or underperforming." Part.

Wiiiiild.

Which as I’ve told you and you still haven’t come up with an adequate counter to under the same letter of the TOS going slowly is punishing someone who wants to go fast just as much as going fast is punishing someone who wants to go slow

So that whole part of the TOS still doesn’t work

If they really wanted to fix this they could just return to a time when the DPS or healer actually couldn’t pull because it would kill them but that is also long gone because tanks want to be immortal gods that don’t rely on other party members and healers are scared to use cure 2 over cure 1 even if the tank doesn’t even need them. Turns out dumbing dungeons down that far has some unintended effects doesn’t it. When people know a dungeon is this easy they are far less willing to tolerate someone still going slow even if that person is new.

[Frizze]

People who insist on their way is the only correct way -- -- have already lost the plot.

Fixed that for you. Anyone using an AI(which has been known to hallucinate answers) as a source to win an argument has also in all likelihood lost the plot. Someone saying that something doesnt work in another game, so it must not work here? Sure sounds like a lack of plot following.

And im gonna push back on your "half the dungeons" claim. Ive been playing since HW launched. Once you get to 50(if not before) a regular mob pull is only threatening to a DPS or healer who is all alone. A good healer can keep a black mage(as in, lowest hp lowest defense) up while tanking 1 pack with no trouble at all. I have literally done this more times then i can count, because the tank having a connection issue doesnt mean that the rest of us want to sit and wait 10 mins to see if they come back. And yes, 2 packs is still possible(though harder) if the other DPS is awake. There are 31 dungeons in all of ARR, including ALL the optional level 50 ones that so many people skip. There are 70 dungeons(and counting) in the expansions. That is clearly not "literally, half".

[Nyastra]

Fixed that for you. Anyone using an AI(which has been known to hallucinate answers) as a source to win an argument has also in all likelihood lost the plot. Someone saying that something doesnt work in another game, so it must not work here? Sure sounds like a lack of plot following.

And im gonna push back on your "half the dungeons" claim. Ive been playing since HW launched. Once you get to 50(if not before) a regular mob pull is only threatening to a DPS or healer who is all alone. A good healer can keep a black mage(as in, lowest hp lowest defense) up while tanking 1 pack with no trouble at all. I have literally done this more times then i can count, because the tank having a connection issue doesnt mean that the rest of us want to sit and wait 10 mins to see if they come back. And yes, 2 packs is still possible(though harder) if the other DPS is awake. There are 31 dungeons in all of ARR, including ALL the optional level 50 ones that so many people skip. There are 70 dungeons(and counting) in the expansions. That is clearly not "literally, half".

Granted, the DPS does not run away into Narnia. Because they like doing that, which uh, kinda prevents me from healing you if you've decided to run back to the entrance instead of just face tanking the mobs and DPSing while I heal you.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Granted, the DPS does not run away into Narnia. Because they like doing that, which uh, kinda prevents me from healing you if you've decided to run back to the entrance instead of just face tanking the mobs and DPSing while I heal you.

How often do they actually run away to Narnia, though?

Like, I’m asking because from my almost daily experience of running roulettes since 5.2, at least over here in Aether 9 out of 10 times people would run towards the tanks or me (the healer), or simply stood still so the mobs would be easily pickable by the tank behind them.

“Running away to Narnia” is actually pretty rare, but of course that’s my anecdotal experience. The closest I could recall was some BLM/SMN picking up 1 stray mob ‘cause they probably burst the pack to their heart’s content before the pack congeals. But they’d have to be so far away from me that not even my ST tools could even reach them—and in extension, they wouldn’t be able to hit anything either outside their ‘new friend’.

[Crafoutis]

This thread is basically why we'll never see regions opened to each other JP is very much YTYP Tank = King attitude that in content often see Tanks/healers sit back & let DPS get beat into Oblivion

And good on them for it.

Unfortunately here in the west there are a ton of people who are allergic to the consequences of their actions. There's a remarkable overlap between people who can't handle consequences in-game or IRL, and the vocal yappy forum/reddit goers in the FFXIV playerbase.

[Nyastra]

How often do they actually run away to Narnia, though?

Like, I’m asking because from my almost daily experience of running roulettes since 5.2, at least over here in Aether 9 out of 10 times people would run towards the tanks or me (the healer), or simply stood still so the mobs would be easily pickable by the tank behind them.

“Running away to Narnia” is actually pretty rare, but of course that’s my anecdotal experience. The closest I could recall was some BLM/SMN picking up 1 stray mob ‘cause they probably burst the pack to their heart’s content before the pack congeals. But they’d have to be so far away from me that not even my ST tools could even reach them—and in extension, they wouldn’t be able to hit anything either outside their ‘new friend’.

In hindsight I should have clarified that this really only happens when the tank eats the floor or DCs. If it's just a regular pull, then they never really run away. (From my experience) It's very easy to heal a DPS trying to kill mobs, unless they run away.

[Supersnow845]

And good on them for it.

Unfortunately here in the west there are a ton of people who are allergic to the consequences of their actions. There's a remarkable overlap between people who can't handle consequences in-game or IRL, and the vocal yappy forum/reddit goers in the FFXIV playerbase.

Letting someone die because you are on an ego trip is not the “consequences of their actions” it’s just you being an unnecessary asshole

Like do YPYT advocates apply this awful logic to everything else, like can I just decide to not heal because you aren’t doing your rotation correctly or only do single single target because you are only single pulling

Like why is it suddenly the sanctity of the mythical “pulling” role that justifies allowing MPK in people’s minds

[TBerry]

Letting someone die because you are on an ego trip is not the “consequences of their actions” it’s just you being an unnecessary asshole

Like do YPYT advocates apply this awful logic to everything else, like can I just decide to not heal because you aren’t doing your rotation correctly or only do single single target because you are only single pulling

Like why is it suddenly the sanctity of the mythical “pulling” role that justifies allowing MPK in people’s minds

It's the same on EU. Tank pulls 99% of the time. You run ahead, you to eat damage of every mob pulled before the tank takes the mob back. Unless it was accidental. You do that repeatedly, you get kicked.

You being sweaty isn't universal to the entire game.

[Supersnow845]

It's the same on EU. Tank pulls 99% of the time. You run ahead, you to eat damage of every mob pulled before the tank takes the mob back. You do that repeatedly, you get kicked.

Okay so the EU is willing to justify MPK as well for a weird ego trip

I’m the first one to tell people NA is trash but at least they arent trying to justify MPK for their own ego so I’m not sure what point you are trying to prove here