"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

[TBerry]

At the risk of repeating myself. Just because you point your finger and say what I say is a "gotcha" doesn't make that a "gotcha".

Not to mention absolutely nothing here addresses my points. What is even your goal there?

I doubt YPYT is a common tank problem. What I do believe that it's used to accuse tanks of a YPYT mindset if the DPS just ignores the tank completely or if a tank dares to stop for one AOE to get full aggro.
Maybe its is just a difference in DC culture, but I wouldn't put it past toxic individualists to force their way by any means necessary, even in a videogame.
You say it doesn't matter who pulls, I say it reeks of abuse, especially when the reality in 99% of duties I've taken part in as a DPS is different.

[Carin-Eri]

Apologies in advance if this is already covered somewhere else in the thread; I've read a fair number of pages but it's a looong thread!

That aside, what IS the etiquette for playing tank in content which involves having more than one on a team? Genuine query as am new to playing Tank (Paladin) and apparently offended at least one other tank in an AR roulette instance of Syrcus Tower by having enmity. Granted, at one point it was a byproduct of using provoke when there was more than one target present, and I may have used it a second time without thinking (even with my enmity switched off) but to be fair - there was no discussion around who was supposed to be the so-called "main tank" and can therefore only assume whoever has the most obvious case of main character syndrome takes that 'role'?

[TBerry]

Apologies in advance if this is already covered somewhere else in the thread; I've read a fair number of pages but it's a looong thread!

That aside, what IS the etiquette for playing tank in content which involves having more than one on a team? Genuine query as am new to playing Tank (Paladin) and apparently offended at least one other tank in an AR roulette instance of Syrcus Tower by having enmity. Granted, at one point it was a byproduct of using provoke when there was more than one target present, and I may have used it a second time without thinking (even with my enmity switched off) but to be fair - there was no discussion around who was supposed to be the so-called "main tank" and can therefore only assume whoever has the most obvious case of main character syndrome takes that 'role'?

Well, I think generally in Alliance raids only one tank holds the aggro, unless there are more than one mobs, or bosses, in which case all tanks pull for their group to distribute them along alliances. Same with 8-man content.
It's easier for melee DPS if the boss doesn't constantly run around between 2 tanks. Just check on who has tank stance on. A tank may request to switch with another tank. You turn on tank stance and get aggro.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]Maybe its is just a difference in DC culture[...]

See, this is something that I genuinely found interesting. Anecdotally speaking since the time I started playing & a half years ago, the people who tend to 'support' tank as the puller tend to be either EU or JP based. Over here in NA, while there are few YPYTs, those amounted to less than one hand annually. Almost everybody here wants to run fast. If non-tanks happened to run ahead and pulls, no biggie. Most tanks here would just run together and pick up everything with their AoE near the end of each walls. No deaths nor hissy fits. On less common occasions, sometimes either tank or healer would even comment "I love DPS pulls with Arm's Length" and this happened more than the YPYTs. If there are any YPYTs, they usually come in pair (with friend or 'couple', usually their healer) or get VK'd real fast when they're alone.

Maybe it IS a difference in DC culture, but at the end of the day, in my eyes this looks like 'majority rules' as the ruling power here: don't get antagonistic with what the party wants to do. If they want it slow or fast, then go with the flow. Persuasion is an option, but do so without sparking unnecessary arguments or use the door.

[jesseleewelch]

This is the first mmo i ever played where the community thinks its ok to pull more aggro. I don't really get why that's even a thing to begin with. People in too big of a hurry.

[BlisteringFrost]

See, this is something that I genuinely found interesting. Anecdotally speaking since the time I started playing & a half years ago, the people who tend to 'support' tank as the puller tend to be either EU or JP based. Over here in NA, while there are few YPYTs, those amounted to less than one hand annually. Almost everybody here wants to run fast. If non-tanks happened to run ahead and pulls, no biggie. Most tanks here would just run together and pick up everything with their AoE near the end of each walls. No deaths nor hissy fits. On less common occasions, sometimes either tank or healer would even comment "I love DPS pulls with Arm's Length" and this happened more than the YPYTs. If there are any YPYTs, they usually come in pair (with friend or 'couple', usually their healer) or get VK'd real fast when they're alone.

Maybe it IS a difference in DC culture, but at the end of the day, in my eyes this looks like 'majority rules' as the ruling power here: don't get antagonistic with what the party wants to do. If they want it slow or fast, then go with the flow. Persuasion is an option, but do so without sparking unnecessary arguments or use the door.

It's 'cos most Americans are very self-absorbed. I am one. So I would know by just going outside on an average day. And the majority of the player base is American (why else are there so many NA servers?)
If you go poke at every post of people angrily being against You Pull You Tank, they're all saying the same thing. "It's because you're not letting me dictate the pace of the dungeon". It's always about me, me, me, me. It's really curious why none of them ever choose to just be the tank themselves.... If not rarely.

[Yeonhee]

I love how every pro YPYT argument comes down to “you just don’t care about the tank and want them to play how you want” but then the core of YPYT as an action is literally “play how I want or I’ll let you die”

Like why is the tank any more “important” in how they want to play. If the DPS wants to pull ahead and the tank doesn’t why is the tank more “right” in that case and the wishes of the tank should be respected, why not the DPS? If you want your gameplay or playing at your own pace to be respected you should also respect other people want to play at a different pace. Your game pace isn’t more important because it’s slower

Like unless you are in a situation where the tank wants to pull slow and the healer and DPS side with the tank and the other DPS pulls anyway which is just basic adherence to the will of the majority why is the tanks “opinion” on the actions of the rest of the party any more important than anyone else’s. Because the only argument I’ve ever heard about that just comes down a nebulous expectation of “courtesy” that pulling is naturally the tanks role despite nothing backing that up so from there somehow the pace the tank wants is the only expected consideration

As TBerry demonstrated quite clearly, the issue here is 100% ego. The tank is the leader and don't you dare going ahead of them.

It's 'cos most Americans are very self-absorbed. I am one. So I would know by just going outside on an average day. And the majority of the player base is American (why else are there so many NA servers?)
If you go poke at every post of people angrily being against You Pull You Tank, they're all saying the same thing. "It's because you're not letting me dictate the pace of the dungeon". It's always about me, me, me, me. It's really curious why none of them ever choose to just be the tank themselves.... If not rarely.

I was a main tank from 5.5 to about 7.1 and never had any issue with DPS pulling ahead of me. But that may be because I never considered myself to be the absolute leader and the only one with the privilege to pull. Or maybe because I'm not american, who knows.

[BlisteringFrost]

I love how every pro YPYT argument comes down to “you just don’t care about the tank and want them to play how you want” but then the core of YPYT as an action is literally “play how I want or I’ll let you die”

Like why is the tank any more “important” in how they want to play. If the DPS wants to pull ahead and the tank doesn’t why is the tank more “right” in that case and the wishes of the tank should be respected, why not the DPS? If you want your gameplay or playing at your own pace to be respected you should also respect other people want to play at a different pace. Your game pace isn’t more important because it’s slower

Like unless you are in a situation where the tank wants to pull slow and the healer and DPS side with the tank and the other DPS pulls anyway which is just basic adherence to the will of the majority why is the tanks “opinion” on the actions of the rest of the party any more important than anyone else’s. Because the only argument I’ve ever heard about that just comes down a nebulous expectation of “courtesy” that pulling is naturally the tanks role despite nothing backing that up so from there somehow the pace the tank wants is the only expected consideration

It's courtesy to the entire party, not just the tank, because in most games with the Tank Healer DPS dichotomy, enemies are not immediately fully reigned in by the tank right away and they will eat your non-tanks alive in a near instant. This is still true in ARR dungeons for FFXIV, and it was true in HW and Stormblood before Shadowbringers combat changes rolled in.

The courtesy doesn't just stop existing in apropos of nothing. It's there for a reason.

[jesseleewelch]

I really don't think folks should be running ahead of the tank for any reason.

For starters, if this is a roulette, you are probably in there with total strangers and have no idea how good (or not) they are. Why start off with wall to wall, only to discover later they can't handle it?

Furthermore, there's no time to discuss things with the party as everyone generally runs forward as soon as it begins.

I have had dps people run ahead while the healer is having connection issues. I have had situations where we just started fighting one group of mobs and the healer runs off to pull another. Not only does this mean no heals for a while, but healer risks getting killed.

I won't YPYT because that would waste time (arguing, waiting for you to come back, arguing, etc...). However, running ahead like that because you're impatient is bad play. If party wipes, you will have cost us more time than you saved.

I can understand why people YPYT as it's the only way to make people experience consequences for their actions. Running ahead of the tank just stresses people out and can potentially cause problems. No other mmo considers this acceptable.

[Alice_Rivers]

This is the first mmo i ever played where the community thinks its ok to pull more aggro. I don't really get why that's even a thing to begin with. People in too big of a hurry.

The biggest reason you see it in this game is the fact that nothing in a normal dungeon is a real threat to anyone, some dps jobs tank better than others but if there's a healer paying attention then your risk of death even pulling W2W as a VPR is zero. It's also the reason why healers in this game are miserable, nothing is a threat to anyone so we don't have a job but that's a side tangent.

For the thread though, I've seen a few YPYT tanks in my four to five years playing and the first time rather than "punishing the dps" all it did was make my life harder for no reason and we wiped because I wasn't paying attention on account of the tank being WAR in late EW content. The second time was kinda funny because in the roulette after I saw that same tank player as a dps and HE was pulling before the tank.