DRK feels super squish in comparison to the other tanks

[Carighan]

I dunno...

Re TBN: This is not a DRK issue, but one with GNB, PLD and WAR. Tank gameplay should not be entirely braindead. I guess we can make an exception for WAR because we don't want their population to nosedive by >90%, but that'd be about it...

Re Dark Arts: That's long in the game, you can use the Darkness skills directly without the route through TBN. Same mana cost, too.

Re Darkside: This could be sensible, but keep in mind there's a host of such setups in the game, would this be a universal change? Does this also mean that all jobs that instead of a selfbuff like DRK or WAR or otherbuff like DNC use a charge proc like PLD or WHM always start fights with them? Picto-for-everyone, basically? :P

The lack Plunge was not justified in the slightest and could have been reworked to where if you used Abyssal Drain it grants Plunge Ready and Abyssal Drain becomes Plunge in the action change settings and make Plunge a target AoE gap closer.

So since apparently there was no justification, what do you say about, well, the justification given for the change to DRK and GNB gapclosers? Did you just miss them giving one?

[DRKoftheAzure]

Re TBN: This is not a DRK issue, but one with GNB, PLD and WAR. Tank gameplay should not be entirely braindead. I guess we can make an exception for WAR because we don't want their population to nosedive by >90%, but that'd be about it...

Tank gameplay can be made more interesting it just depends on how far both devs and players are wanting to go in terms of how frequent tankbusters, tank swaps, and raidwides should be... and MAYBE if trash pulls have avoidable AoEs that happen frequently...

Re Dark Arts: That's long in the game, you can use the Darkness skills directly without the route through TBN. Same mana cost, too.

40 levels in to get a defensive cooldown that costs 3k MP that has a mechanic that might as well not exist do to how devs have both the cooldown and the mechanic setup doesn't exactly inspire confidence for anyone picking DRK as there first tank, and you have to wait until Ishgard to unlock DRK in first place, so you might as well wait until level 60 on your current job to unlock GNB...

Re Darkside: This could be sensible, but keep in mind there's a host of such setups in the game, would this be a universal change? Does this also mean that all jobs that instead of a selfbuff like DRK or WAR or otherbuff like DNC use a charge proc like PLD or WHM always start fights with them? Picto-for-everyone, basically? :P

Well, if it means we don't have another "Pictomancer Incident" it CAN be a universal change if people want it. As for everyone starting fights with all of their resources, the meta sheep are already frothing at the mouth at such an idea for their Parses to be better than they already are.... especially if it means we don't have another "Pictomancer Incident" again...

So since apparently there was no justification, what do you say about, well, the justification given for the change to DRK and GNB gapclosers? Did you just miss them giving one?

Don't get me wrong, removing damage dealing gap closers on DRK, GNB, DRG, and MNK was stupid idea that they never should have done as it could cause more balancing issues than it solves... it's just that the devs thought it was easier long term to remove such gap closers... Damage-dealing gap closers, in my opinion, should AT LEAST be a GCD combo finisher for a ranged attack GCD combo in an attempt to keep them balanced, ESPECIALLY if you have to be away from the boss for prolonged periods of time...

[Carighan]

Tank gameplay can be made more interesting it just depends on how far both devs and players are wanting to go in terms of how frequent tankbusters, tank swaps, and raidwides should be... and MAYBE if trash pulls have avoidable AoEs that happen frequently...
40 levels in to get a defensive cooldown that costs 3k MP that has a mechanic that might as well not exist do to how devs have both the cooldown and the mechanic setup doesn't exactly inspire confidence for anyone picking DRK as there first tank, and you have to wait until Ishgard to unlock DRK in first place, so you might as well wait until level 60 on your current job to unlock GNB...
Well, if it means we don't have another "Pictomancer Incident" it CAN be a universal change if people want it. As for everyone starting fights with all of their resources, the meta sheep are already frothing at the mouth at such an idea for their Parses to be better than they already are.... especially if it means we don't have another "Pictomancer Incident" again...
Don't get me wrong, removing damage dealing gap closers on DRK, GNB, DRG, and MNK was stupid idea that they never should have done as it could cause more balancing issues than it solves... it's just that the devs thought it was easier long term to remove such gap closers... Damage-dealing gap closers, in my opinion, should AT LEAST be a GCD combo finisher for a ranged attack GCD combo in an attempt to keep them balanced, ESPECIALLY if you have to be away from the boss for prolonged periods of time...

You keep jumping topics.

Now you're talking about adding a ranged combo to tanks? And the issue with Dark Arts is now about when you get TBN, not about - supposedly - not being able to just use Darkness skills without using TBN first? And you're talking about encounter design instead of tank design? Which, don't get me wrong, ought to be improved but I thought your issue was with the tank design?

[DRKoftheAzure]

You keep jumping topics.

You were the one who mentioned all of the other tanks first...

Unless you're referring to the multi-quote that I did which is a simple a copy+paste, in which case; yeah I was confused when I first saw someone else doing and didn't know how to that despite how easy it is... which a long time ago... it's how some people respond to certain topics they feel like they have enough experience/confidence in...

Now you're talking about adding a ranged combo to tanks?And the issue with Dark Arts is now about when you get TBN, not about - supposedly - not being able to just use Darkness skills without using TBN first?

If you had read my first post, which you only read SOME of it, but not all of it you wouldn't be asking that question, because you would have already understood what I was talking about... which is when 5.00 released and after, DRK is a poorly designed mess that BARELY works like it's SUPPOSE to...

And you're talking about encounter design instead of tank design? Which, don't get me wrong, ought to be improved but I thought your issue was with the tank design?

If you're referring to me complaining about DRK gameplay design then yes... which is what my first post is ABOUT.... If you were talking about overall tank design; you were the one that brought up overall tank design first... and I was giving my some of my thoughts and opinions on how to improve overall tank gameplay... which I have more of but I already talked about in another thread, but to recap what I said in that thread is that tank cooldowns need to have 2-3 more charges, longer durations, shorter re-cast timers, and for GNB specifically, 3-6 the amount of charges for their cooldowns because Gunblade and FF8 reference...

[Ryskim]

DRK needs to be remade from the ground up. It is currently a totally out of place job, and it does not even follow the DRK lore in past FF titles. Now, I understand they wanted to do something new, but most of the time it's better not to reinvent the wheel.

DRK should be a melee/caster hybrid job with dark spells and proper spellcasting animations.

- Should have the Absorb-XXX series of spells as in FFXI
- Abyssal Drain should be a spell with 2.5s spellcasting time, MP consumption and never share timer with Carve and Spit.
- The Power Slash combo needs to return. It was an amazing skill. Nobody wants to smash the same combo for 100 levels. Its absolutely unacceptable.
- Plunge should be back, and that lazy pathetic abomination called "shadowstride" should disappear forever. I'm tired of lazy solutions from devs because they simply do not want to find their way to keep things in the game. They go the easy route every single time.
- Reprisal should be a DRK only skill as it was when added in 3.0
- The animation for Flood of Darkness/Shadow is pathetic and should be deleted for ever, then reworked to be satisfying to use as Edge of Darkness/Shadow. or just replace it with Dark Passenger and return the ability to us.
- Blood Weapon animation is very nice and it's frankly infuriating that it is replaced with "Delirium". Once again CU4 making another horrible decision. Delirium was originally an amazing double-slash skill that was changed into the literal garbage it is today.
- SCOURGE, SOLE SURVIVOR and TAR PIT need to return.

With the arrival of the new unrestricted glamour, the Abyys, Chaos and Ignominy sets, and all AF in general for all jobs, should remain restricted to their respective job to maintain the minimum job identity, if any at all.

Overall, this dumbing down of jobs needs to stop. They keep using button replacers and removing job features to make it easier for them to balance, and uglier or less enjoyable for players. They always prioritize their comfort and not what the players want. If something is hard to balance, they just dumb it down, or remove it entirely. Only the dev's comfort matters. It's frankly lazy and pathetic. They've been doing this for years but with that absolute disaster called Dawntrail, it's even worse now.

Do keep in mind that DRK has had SIXTEEN abilities and actions removed over time. The massacre they have done with DRK is unprecedented and absolutely horrendous (here's the video):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXMTLM19JZw&t=180s

The most impressive thing is that the work needed to bring back skills that are already done would be minimal. Those skills are already designed and done, they just need to bring them back, they don't have to re-created them at all. they removed them out of pure dev laziness and this obsession with dumbing down and oversimplifying jobs that they have. It's this very obsession was has led players to decide to leave the game out of pure boredom. And it needs to stop.

[Shistar]

[...] and it does not even follow the DRK lore in past FF titles.

Does it have to, though? I personally see nothing wrong with DRK being its own thing depending on the game, just because it's appeared more than once in the FF series doesn't mean that it has to be shackled to what the previous iterations were like.
I don't say this to defend its current state, I'm just saying it won't necessarily be better simply by making it more like previous DRK iterations.

The most impressive thing is that the work needed to bring back skills that are already done would be minimal. Those skills are already designed and done, they just need to bring them back, they don't have to re-created them at all. they removed them out of pure dev laziness and this obsession with dumbing down and oversimplifying jobs that they have. It's this very obsession was has led players to decide to leave the game out of pure boredom. And it needs to stop.

What do we do with button bloat, balancing, rotations, etc.? I don't want 16 skills to just drop on my lap. I don't have 16 hotbar slots to fit them in and I can't imagine the horrible mess the rotation would become if they forced us to use that many skills in one go. You're right in that the animations, VFx and original effect of the skills is already there, and while I don't agree with many of SE's decisions I'd say removing button bloat is usually a good one to make (within reason). The issue is that they remove stuff without replacing it with improved versions, but the removal itself is not the problem here imho.

[Carighan]

Does it have to, though? I personally see nothing wrong with DRK being its own thing depending on the game, just because it's appeared more than once in the FF series doesn't mean that it has to be shackled to what the previous iterations were like.
I don't say this to defend its current state, I'm just saying it won't necessarily be better simply by making it more like previous DRK iterations.

Not only that, it'd be inherently silly to assume that past FF-iterations (single-player JRPGs) are somehow sensible for a western-style MMORPG as a basis. That is sometimes true: if applicable, it might be worth copying just the lore, sure. But as the mechanics by-necessity have to differ, often massively so, the lore naturally has to give.

And that brings me to another important point: Those other FF games, by now, are dwarved by the raw amount of lore, implementation and time given to FFXIV. FFXIV is the "truth" by now, just through its persistence and raw size. If anything, one could argue that other upcoming FF games ought to respect the FFXIV-lore then.

Those skills are already designed and done, they just need to bring them back, they don't have to re-created them at all. they removed them out of pure dev laziness and this obsession with dumbing down and oversimplifying jobs that they have. It's this very obsession was has led players to decide to leave the game out of pure boredom. And it needs to stop.

[citation needed] - on both parts of that. Go on, try. Yeah you'll anecdotally find players who left the game citing that it was in particular because a specific skill was removed. Sure. Anecdotally you'll also find a player who joined the game just around that time and hence clearly removing skills brings in new players, huh? :P Nevermind the first part, try to cite a source for that!

Overall, this dumbing down of jobs needs to stop. They keep using button replacers and removing job features to make it easier for them to balance, and uglier or less enjoyable for players. They always prioritize their comfort and not what the players want. If something is hard to balance, they just dumb it down, or remove it entirely. Only the dev's comfort matters. It's frankly lazy and pathetic. They've been doing this for years but with that absolute disaster called Dawntrail, it's even worse now.

Removal of unnecessary, pointless or otherwise inconsequential skills is - by and large - not "dumbing down". These skills are inherently "stupid" in their existence, hence removing them, if anything, would be the opposite. As their presence is, well, "dumb". As Shistar says, the issue is not removing skills, in fact, they could remove a loooooooot more. The issue is that they don't want to touch the core gameplay loop, because we know from thousands of other games and even from multiple other MMORPGs that with just a handful of skills (for a very direct comparison look to GW2 with it's 12-15 skills at the same time) you can create far more engaging gameplay than FFXIV can with it's 22-30.
It's also important to keep in mind that when comparing some games (like WoW) then these games have skills that are not combat-relevant, but exist as "flavor". These can be important, see Death Knight group water riding for an example. They're inconsequential, but their presence or absence only matters insofar as to whether controller players can still play the character meaningfully and that's a problem that can also be approached with fly-out menus or autocombos.

But the core issue remains: If the existing 22 skills are already too many and don't provide meaningful gameplay and are just pressed according to a fixed, pre-calculated, sequence, then there is exactly zero point to adding 16 extra. In fact what you ought to do is remove skills, and once you're down to 10 or so actually genuinely meaningful, frequent and powerful ones, you can then re-tool the core gameplay loop to take advantage of a more involved class setup.

Consider for a simple example that if you think honestly about it, there's no reason Dark Knight needs any mitigation skill except The Blackest Night (note that I did not mean the invuln, I'd love to rip those out as they are but that requires extensive combat re-design, too). The issue is that TBN is not strong, available or variable enough to cover all situations where we currently use 1 or more mitigation skills. But in the end, we use all of these for the same reason, "Reduce damage intake". A minimalist and elegant design for a class would then if possible only use a single skill, that is strong, flexible and readily available. Utopian design idea of course, but it's to explain the idea of less-is-more.

[Derio]

There needs to be a lower level version of TBN. They can reuse shadowskin animation.

They wanted to reduce the number of buttons per minute and combined abyssal drain and carve and spit on the same cooldown and further doubled down by reducing the amount of mp blood weapon grants and combined it with delirium.

Not just DRK. All tanks need to be re-evalutated from the ground up to make healers more relevant and make tanks feel like tanks and not gods.

[ikarino]

There is no such thing as bad work, only bad players.

[Reginald_Cain]

Make dark knight crash 2 energy bats into the enemy. Each hit heals the party. I want a move where we cut ourselves and we use the blood to shield the whole team with magic flying out of our wound.