"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

[VeyaAkemi]

you really cannot assume every DPS that pulls ahead is doing so with nothing but selfless grace and love in their heart

I never said it's selfless, I said that it is an action that, assuming nothing goes awry, will benefit the whole party, or at very minimum, they don't see it as a negative, the point is that it is very clearly not an attempt to sabotage the party.

Admittedly it's something that is difficult to properly gauge, I think it's is clear there is malice in the actions if the Tank ever stands there idle, which I seen happen before when the DPS was as much as moving ahead of the Tank slightly, but then if the Tank does move towards the DPS taking heat, but in a leisure pace, just at the normal run speed, no ranged attack, no gap closer, no sprint, no Provoke, were those tools on CD(barring ranged attack that has just GCD), or did the Tank willingly not use them and moved at all just to have plausible deniability? that's much harder to tell.

I also don't think a SGE willingly taking a hit to get Toxicon stacks is remotely a negative, it's their cooldowns, they can fix it themselves, and why get one Toxicon stack by shielding the Tank, when they could get two back to back by shielding themselves and the Tank?

[Grimforth]

This the most ridiculous notion I have ever read in any MMO forum. How can you ban someone for a cause and effect that you started. Give your head a shake.

I think you need to give your head a shake since you obviously don't read the rules at all.

[Astronis]

I never said it's selfless, I said that it is an action that, assuming nothing goes awry, will benefit the whole party, or at very minimum, they don't see it as a negative, the point is that it is very clearly not an attempt to sabotage the party.

Assuming nothing goes awry, it's safe to assume whatever the DPS did did not have a negative effect on the group and maybe had a miniscule positive effect, not that the DPS's intent can safely assumed to be the best interests of the group.

Admittedly it's something that is difficult to properly gauge, I think it's is clear there is malice in the actions if the Tank ever stands there idle, which I seen happen before when the DPS was as much as moving ahead of the Tank slightly, but then if the Tank does move towards the DPS taking heat, but in a leisure pace, just at the normal run speed, no ranged attack, no gap closer, no sprint, no Provoke, were those tools on CD(barring ranged attack that has just GCD), or did the Tank willingly not use them and moved at all just to have plausible deniability? that's much harder to tell.

I'd not call that malice. DPS wanted to have some fun and use their Bloodbath and Arm's Length, Tank let them have some fun, nothing went awry, all is well. Can't say that behavior is not doing your job--especially given so many DPS justify their pulling first as being extra tank mitigation. Let 'em mitigate a second or two! Could be the tank is annoyed or it could be the tank is letting the DPS do the job they say they want to do by pulling. Pulling aggro instantly results in tanking damage, so you can't decide that "pulling" is such a discrete behavior from "tanking" and then get upset if a tank lets you mitigate for them for a moment. ETA: To be clear--if a DPS gets that far ahead of me, which is rare, and they have Arm's Length and Bloodbath, I'm not going to make any special effort to reach them. They're fine, and I'll get there pretty quick anyhow because I am already sprinting, but I'm not gonna jump or voke. Other tanks may behave differently, and if they are quietly expressing what could be annoyance with your behavior but not letting you die, they aren't doing anything wrong.

Or the tank had to scratch their nose, I've done that before when a DPS got supremely impatient and pulled a boss. I'll Unmend as soon as I can, but lemme get my hand back on my mouse first.

Honestly, the only way for a DPS to pull without ever tanking is to be ranged and hit from behind the tank.

I also don't think a SGE willingly taking a hit to get Toxicon stacks is remotely a negative, it's their cooldowns, they can fix it themselves, and why get one Toxicon stack by shielding the Tank, when they could get two back to back by shielding themselves and the Tank?

It's definitely not done to benefit the party.

[VeyaAkemi]

Assuming nothing goes awry, it's safe to assume whatever the DPS did did not have a negative effect on the group and maybe had a miniscule positive effect, not that the DPS's intent can safely assumed to be the best interests of the group.

You are being needlessly pedantic, I was simply attempting to address whether or not a DPS pulling would be, in itself, a reportable offense under that rule,which you seem to agree it's not, maybe I used overly flowery terms, but that's irrelevant to the point, which i felt was quite clear.

Honestly, the only way for a DPS to pull without ever tanking is to be ranged and hit from behind the tank.

You really underestimate the power of the pity ranged hit every melee minus MKN has plus a gap closer towards the Tank, not all who pull do that, but it is the ideal way to handle things if you are going that route.

It's definitely not done to benefit the party.

There is an argument it is a very minor benefit since it will allow the SGE to have marginally better DPS through the fight, but even ignoring that painfully pedantic argument, it doesn't have to be, it only needs to be neutral, me doing /mogdance or /lophop while the boss is untargetable and I don't need to move doesn't benefit the party either(and at least in one occasion, it was to our detriment, I was in Thornmarch, did /mogdance during phase transition, and it mesmerized a sprout enough that they ceased paying attention to the fight to ask me where that was from, funny story that), but it will be a cold day in hell before I don't do that.

[BlisteringFrost]

I think you need to give your head a shake since you obviously don't read the rules at all.

You can't prove intent the tank never says. That's why they never action it, because most people aren't so foolish as to openly say "I'm going to watch you die cuz you keep pulling for me!" So they never action it, because they don't action hearsay.

Time to stop playing Scared Ostrich when reality comes your way my friend in Hydaelyn

[Astronis]

You are being needlessly pedantic, I was simply attempting to address whether or not a DPS pulling would be, in itself, a reportable offense under that rule,which you seem to agree it's not, maybe I used overly flowery terms, but that's irrelevant to the point, which i felt was quite clear.

I wouldn't have replied at all without the overly flowery language, not out of pedantry, but because it gets extremely old seeing so many players characterize DPS doing something that's fun for them but annoys a number of other players as being laudable and beyond reproach while the annoyance is characterized as a moral failure. It's a generalized thing about this community that makes me glad I took up tanking in it long before I encountered these forums, as I think it deters people from playing a role they might enjoy. I do agree that DPS pulling isn't by itself reportable.

You really underestimate the power of the pity ranged hit every melee minus MKN has plus a gap closer towards the Tank, not all who pull do that, but it is the ideal way to handle things if you are going that route.

To be overly pedantic, Harpe by itself sucks, and "be ranged" certainly can include using your ranged skills

There is an argument it is a very minor benefit since it will allow the SGE to have marginally better DPS through the fight, but even ignoring that painfully pedantic argument, it doesn't have to be, it only needs to be neutral, me doing /mogdance or /lophop while the boss is untargetable and I don't need to move doesn't benefit the party either(and at least in one occasion, it was to our detriment, I was in Thornmarch, did /mogdance during phase transition, and it mesmerized a sprout enough that they ceased paying attention to the fight to ask me where that was from, funny story that), but it will be a cold day in hell before I don't do that.

Verily, most pedantic indeed. I'm not stopping /mogdance there either. At least when I can remember it's not /moogledance.

[syldon]

https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216



Two things to note about this: Intent is important, a DPS pulling can be safely assumed to have the best interest of the group, that is a quicker run through the instance, in mind, you considering that behavior uncooperative is irrelevant to that point, meanwhile, refusing to perform your textbook role, which I must stress, it's not to lead or to pull, it's to tank, is very clearly a sabotage of an individual.

I also highlighted example 1 because I don't think, and do say if you think otherwise, "I don't want to <perform my role> because I don't like how this player is acting", is meaningfully different from the example listed.

this is all subjective. And it is ended by stating:

it is not a violation as long as the player is playing appropriately.

It is not appropriate for a PUG dps to pull mobs, without prior arrangement in place. For this to be an offence which causes exclusion, then you would have to show where it declares this as reasonable.

[BlisteringFrost]

this is all subjective. And it is ended by stating:

It is not appropriate for a PUG dps to pull mobs, without prior arrangement in place. For this to be an offence which causes exclusion, then you would have to show where it declares this as reasonable.

"Because I said so and the tanks don't get a say in this matter otherwise they're evil and toxic!!1!"

(This is intended to be satire, in case this wasn't obvious)

[Yeonhee]

this is all subjective. And it is ended by stating:

It is not appropriate for a PUG dps to pull mobs, without prior arrangement in place. For this to be an offence which causes exclusion, then you would have to show where it declares this as reasonable.

I can understand if the DPS runs around like an headless chicken instead of bringing them to you but completely refusing to take aggro because "you pull you tank" is absolutely against ToS and "not playing appropriately". And it also means that the tank should do something about their ego issues.

[Grimforth]

You can't prove intent the tank never says. That's why they never action it, because most people aren't so foolish as to openly say "I'm going to watch you die cuz you keep pulling for me!" So they never action it, because they don't action hearsay.

Time to stop playing Scared Ostrich when reality comes your way my friend in Hydaelyn

The fact that you're trying so hard to defend this mentality as a clear indication that you're one of many tanks that do this. Also they do action it especially when it's happened to three other people. And the GMS are most likely to believe the reports of 3 people instead of 1 crybaby tank. I'm probably wrong though I could be right, but I'm pretty sure that every single dungeon and or Raid is recorded and gets deleted after a certain amount of time has passed. A GM can simply just go back and watch what happens from start to finish and if the people who reported you is telling the truth, then you're getting punish. The tank doesn't have to say a damn thing and you're still getting punished. Actions do speak louder than words and you're the loudest person in the room right now.

Face the reality buddy, the game does not cater to your needs and you should knock it off with the YPYT mentality.