FF14 has abandoned their mid core players and thats why its failing.

[Valence]

I am never going to do any piece of content in this game that requires memorizing a 20 page raidplan

This is what a lot of people categorizing extreme trials and sometimes even savage as midcore tend to miss.

Either way, beyond everybody having different metrics for what is softcore, midcore and hardcore (time spent, preparation, difficulty, execution, coordination, whatever floats your boat), what the OP did was using those words instead of actual metrics that aren't used as wedge issues by the playerbase: the main difference between two main types of content in the core PVE of the game right now is raidplan vs no raidplan. One can blind prog extremes and up, but the fact that you still have to write even if just in your head those multiple pages of raidplans is something that pushes a lot of the playerbase away, and I'm saying this as a player that has raided for a long time, they also do push me away especially today in DDR lalaland. The tragedy is that it becomes extremely difficult to actually challenge players in such an environment today without immediately jumping into heavy raidplan territory for the very reason that there is no difficulty left at the RPG battlesystem level and the job's difficulty.

There is also a secondary metric that people already hinted at that is recoverability of fights, which goes hand in hand with the aforementioned RPG battlesystems we have lost: if it's a body check or an instant wipe mechanic, it's automatically going to push away the same population that doesn't want to deal with that kind of binary difficulty. The current issue is that it's very hard to provide casual difficulty or complexity because those systems have been completely removed from the game (resource management, party synergy, and a sustain based job/party system). It wasn't rare before ShB to have parties crumble down and wipe not because of bodychecks or gotcha mechanics, but because the party slowly got overwhelmed by damage and mechanics, or was left with no MP to continue, which offered a much more organic level of difficulty than BRAINLESS <<<< OR >>>> HARDCORE.

What new combat...? Honestly, it feels almost insulting that the reason we didn't get a better job design is because of what we got in Dawntrail (supposedly after 7.2).

Combat still looks the same to me. Better than Endwalker? Sure is, but still adheres to the same old formula of over-scripted fights with mirrored mechanics and symmetrical spots matching the ground tiles. Cleave left, then right? You got it! I may be told naive, but from what was hyped during the Fanfests, I truly expected big changes and not some occasional moments like the M2S beelines or M6S adds.

Yes honestly the only thing Dawntrail actually introduced is a much faster pace with overlapping mechanics relying more on often obnoxious visual cues from the boss or the arena, and call it "new encounter design".

[Gurgeh]

savage is literally midcore with minor exceptions, so is chaotic, and if anything requiring nothing but a pulse is casual, then even extrials are.

If 'in practice’ you can't clear it, both without a guide, and also by queueing 'easily and quickly at almost any moderately populated time of your leisure', then it's is NOT midcore.

Neither extremes nor savage can be cleared without guides while they are current, not by any significant population saving those who would go onto to ultimate.

I think part of it is also how many 'clears' (not work) is required for the major rewards. Extreeme farms are not midcore because the atmosphere is sweaty and moody, created by peoples intolerance of poor performance created by the pressure to clear clear clear.

[Gurgeh]

That's the same thing as being afraid. That's exactly what I mean when I say they are afraid. They are afraid of being judged or not being flawless. That's the definition of anxiety. Fearing a future possible scenario that may not even happen.

Back in Heavensward, I filled up a linkshell (128 people) in two days that was aimed at people who were anxious at trying out raids. That's how widespread this issue is. You can fill a linkshell with anxious people that want to raid but are afraid to in just days.

No it is not the same at all Jeeqbit.
I cleared Ex1, Ex2, Ex3. Loved progressing. However, every time I went into a farm party it was just miserable. It wasn't fun. It was MOST often the opposite. And it was the people, their mood, the way they acted.
Then I tried Chaotic and a lot of the progress, I was seeing the same antisocial behaviours.
Then I tried Ex4 prog, and now I was similar antisocial behaviour in prog. People rowing over interpretation of strategies and performance, or worst of all just bailing prematurely.
(If I could only have one cheap fix, it would be that anyone who bails on a party is locked out of that instance for 36 hours. Griefer? vote kick or leader kick, and a kicked person cant join a party with that leader for 36 hours. None of that is hard to code.)

I can assure you that I was not 'afraid'. I have no 'fear' about getting in chat to defend someone who is being picked on. And afterwards it's not anxiousness in the slightest I feel about the prospect of requeing, its just disdain. I had good experience, and it just wasn't fun. I didn't even want to prog because I want my reward, but I also want fun, and I'm not enduring those farm parties.

I think you are deluding yourself if you don't believe that a lot of people have tried it, do accurately know it, but just don't like it. Its not midcore. Its not fear. I think you are also deluding yourself if you don't believe that for a lot of those that haven't tried it, that a lot of those if they did, would come to the same conclusion, it's not fun. It's actually unpleasant.

[TheRealQuah]

Savage is midcore content.

It's the hardcore content that's lacking in FFXIV with 1 ultimate a year.

[TheRealQuah]

If 'in practice’ you can't clear it, both without a guide, and also by queueing 'easily and quickly at almost any moderately populated time of your leisure', then it's is NOT midcore.

Neither extremes nor savage can be cleared without guides while they are current, not by any significant population saving those who would go onto to ultimate.

I think part of it is also how many 'clears' (not work) is required for the major rewards. Extreeme farms are not midcore because the atmosphere is sweaty and moody, created by peoples intolerance of poor performance created by the pressure to clear clear clear.

No. Hardcore content is stuff that takes 100s of hours of prog to get it down. Ex and savage are easily completable by the average player with some knowledge of how to play their job.

My group cleared the latest EX fight blind in 1 lockout. How on earth is that hardcore.

[Gurgeh]

Savage is midcore content.

It's the hardcore content that's lacking in FFXIV with 1 ultimate a year.

Whatever. You make the game what you want. Not my problem anymore.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Debating with use of arbitrary term like 'midcore' never gets anywhere.

[...]I may be told naive, but from what was hyped during the Fanfests, I truly expected big changes and not some occasional moments like the M2S beelines or M6S adds[...]

Funnily enough, those two things seemed to be receiving a lot of disdain from certain type of players. Just shows how far removed people are from anything that's not "Stand here, do the dance, or die".

[Kohashi]

I'm honestly completely confused on what the majority of the playerbase thinks midcore is. I always assumed midcore was extremes, first three savage fights, Deep dungeon, field exploration, ect. Really anything that has a bit of a challenge but not overly challenging. M6S definitely seemed out of the range of midcore, but that's a fringe case.

I've been told by the casual playerbase that the new dungeons are not casual, they're midcore, and I was told normal raids are midcore because the casual players don't do them.

Honestly I think the playerbase is divided on what midcore even is.

I agree we need more content that is slightly challenging, I'd say fights that might take roughly 25-50 pulls blind to clear and is easy to get into, but I know a lot of the playerbase disagrees with me on that.

The main difference between players is in how they use their time. If you are logged in the game for 6 hrs each day, you are a hardcore player. If you put it in perspective, you can draw a parallel between doom-scrolling TikTok and actually reading a book/ learning something new.

Most of the "arguments" offered by people who deliberately avoid the "hardcore" content are just excuses for mediocrity and a refusal to step out of their comfort zone. That is, if you do not have a diagnosed disability provided by a certified professional.

[azuraroya]

i wanna be fair and square, final fantasy has been made for casual, mid core, even the worst fight in the game can be cleared with a little practice and learning to dance, if you have an hint on how to play your roles.
you havent chose the right game to put yourself into challenges. but every content in the game imo is enjoyable, has long the whole party agree to enjoy and laugh at mistakes, learn and do better next time.

[Sunhwapark]

I don't even know what mid-core means. I would consider myself a casual, and open to doing pretty much anything except ultimate, but I guess in the eyes of others, it's not the same.
I thought the hardcore/midcore phrases and such was just how much time someone and effort someone would be willing to dedicate themselves to the EX/Savage/Ultimate/ whatever content upon release.