Viper feels incredibly boring.

[Supersnow845]

Because you dont understand that removing NG was the best step because with the removal it ADDED DEPTH to the class, no you have some optis, which goes above the "standardplay" and possibilitys which werent even possible with NG

Being able to triple awaken now that you don’t have NG isn’t an optimisation. It’s just doing the easiest option available which was what NG was originally created to avoid you being able to do

Removing NG just means the class doesn’t have any way to play it wrong

[Cynric]

The change to the basic combo was because NG was removed, though. The removal of NG meant that the second combo starter had to do something different now. It also automatically meant that Dreadwinder (now Vicewinder) lost a lot of its interaction with the rest of the kit. Really, everything you wrote in your long post, which, just to be clear I fully agree with, is the result of the removal of NG. This is the sentiment I have about the changes.

Its just the fact that the devs wanting to remove NG has completely cascaded over the entirety of Vipers kit. Does not help that people claim it still plays the same, usually those are the people that played it wrong in the first place.

I mean you aren't wrong that all of that was partly due to the removal of it. I just kinda wanted to show that like it was the whole scope of their changes they made that made things be how they are now and not just because they removed the debuff. They could've removed the debuff but replaced the interplay that would've been lost with something more interesting. Instead they chose the option to just make things as simple as possible which led to the class becoming boring. It's just a sad thing to me the level at which they simplified it compared to the EA version.

[AvoSturmfaust]

Being able to triple awaken now that you don’t have NG isn’t an optimisation. It’s just doing the easiest option available which was what NG was originally created to avoid you being able to do

Removing NG just means the class doesn’t have any way to play it wrong

Im not talking about triple awakening, there is so much more, triple awakening is something which is still not really used

[ovIm]

Because you dont understand that removing NG was the best step because with the removal it ADDED DEPTH to the class, no you have some optis, which goes above the "standardplay" and possibilitys which werent even possible with NG

No, it is you who does not understand a thing, lol. As if having to consider NG in every bit of content was not a consideration in and out of yourself. Creativity sparks because of constraints, not because of lack of them.
Just because it added some possibilities in some high end duties does not remove the fact that it crippled the default gameplay which happens in every bit of content. Added depth in some duties at the cost of gameplay depth in every bit of combat content is a net negative in gameplay depth for the class. Stop thinking about duty-specific things.

It may have gained some, but it lost a lot.

[AvoSturmfaust]

No, it is you who does not understand a thing, lol. As if having to consider NG in every bit of content was not a consideration in and out of yourself. Creativity sparks because of constraints, not because of lack of them.
Just because it added some possibilities in some high end duties does not remove the fact that it crippled the default gameplay which happens in every bit of content. Added depth in some duties at the cost of gameplay depth in every bit of combat content is a net negative in gameplay depth for the class. Stop thinking about duty-specific things.

It may have gained some, but it lost a lot.

"every bit" you mean dungeons? where you can press 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 and break your combo all over again while still doing more as enough dmg to clear the dungeon?
So yea i rather have added depth in content where DPS matters then having depth in content where you literally can roll your head on the keyboard and still clear it

[NobleWinter]

"every bit" you mean dungeons? where you can press 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 and break your combo all over again while still doing more as enough dmg to clear the dungeon?
So yea i rather have added depth in content where DPS matters then having depth in content where you literally can roll your head on the keyboard and still clear it

You would rather have depth in the content you enjoy than the other 95% of the game where most of the player base lives cause screw people who enjoy playing well in dungeons, fates, alliance raids, trials, deep dungeons etc. Interesting take. I think building classes to be enjoyable in the entirety of the game is pretty crucial personally.

[ovIm]

"every bit" you mean dungeons? where you can press 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 and break your combo all over again while still doing more as enough dmg to clear the dungeon?
So yea i rather have added depth in content where DPS matters then having depth in content where you literally can roll your head on the keyboard and still clear it

Man you are so narrow sighted it would be funny if it weren't so sad.

Not just regular Dungeons, Variant Dungens and Deep Dungeons too, Field Operations, Normal Mode Raids and Trials, Treasure Maps, and Alliance Raids, all of these gameplay experiences do benefit from interesting gameplay mechanics in a class (and that does extend to more than just Viper). Or do you want to say that people playing these gameplay bits are not allowed to have fun with their classes? I for one firmly believe classes should be fun to play, not just raid encounters.

[Burmecia]

im just pissed almost no one else but viper has option to action change to any meaningful extent

[Valence]

Man you are so narrow sighted it would be funny if it weren't so sad.

Not just regular Dungeons, Variant Dungens and Deep Dungeons too, Field Operations, Normal Mode Raids and Trials, Treasure Maps, and Alliance Raids, all of these gameplay experiences do benefit from interesting gameplay mechanics in a class (and that does extend to more than just Viper). Or do you want to say that people playing these gameplay bits are not allowed to have fun with their classes? I for one firmly believe classes should be fun to play, not just raid encounters.

Maybe they should make raid encounters actually fun too?

[ovIm]

Maybe they should make raid encounters actually fun too?

That would make a lot of raiders and streamers that got used to the timeline based railroaded circular-or-square-room-with-boss encounters this game calls raids very sad though, and we can't have that.

Jokes aside, while I, personally, do find the aforementioned approach to boss encounters incredibly monotonous and boring, they are also a staple of this game, and there are people that enjoy this approach. If that is what they enjoy then hey, who are we to deny them their fun?

What is a huge downer imho is that this has become the de-facto standard for every encounter this game has, removing any other way of designing past that were also quite present and enjoyed of the game in earlier patches. Which of course not just alienates enjoyers of other design paradigms, but also (to return to topic) has a negative effect on the possible depth of job gameplay as we are seeing currently (Vipers NG, BLM's casttimes and timers, DRG's iforgotitsname oGCD, Ninja being forced to stand still during TCJ, all of these things were cut because they did not fit the overall combat design template the devs are going for).