The new dungeon is still ENTIRELY too easy

[jonimated]

I think the second boss of that last dungeon is a step in the right direction because while pretty simple, every role has to engage with the boss differently. I wish we had more of that, but it would be even better if your experience as a DRG was vastly different from engaging with a boss as a MNK.

Honestly I think another really good example of this is the first boss in Strayborough Deadwalk. I know people tend to dislike this boss so this may be unpopular opinion bait, but I have always personally loved it. It's genuinely one of my favourite dungeon bosses. I think it's a really smart way of keeping players engaged in the fight using the randomized nature of the players themselves.

The Spirited Charge mechanic has the groups of dolls target different players based on positioning. They will then run in the direction of whichever player each group targeted. Sure a group of 4 completely organized players can bait the dolls to run in a very specific pattern and make it the same every time, but this just isn't going to happen. Normal duty finder just won't have that kind of organization. So what ends up happening is a mechanic that looks random on the surface, but is really that way because of the random nature of player positioning. The fight itself doesn't actually have any RNG, but due to the unorganized nature of duty finder it does.

I think it's a really smart way to cause players to have to pay attention to whats going on no matter how many times they've done the fight. It also has one of the rare examples of consequence that isn't just vuln stack. I would love to see more of this.

[TomsYoungerBro]

You found it boring.
Another player loved it.
Someone else found it really difficult/challenging.

There isn't a scenario where everyone is happy.

Fix job design to be way more complex and everyone will be happy. Casuals dont care about optimizing damage, and midcore+ players can build up mastery of their job regardless of the difficulty of the content.

MSQ dungeons/trials can stay at a level everyone can clear with normal raids and ARs being a step up.

[Altina_Orion]

Fix job design to be way more complex and everyone will be happy. Casuals dont care about optimizing damage, and midcore+ players can build up mastery of their job regardless of the difficulty of the content.

MSQ dungeons/trials can stay at a level everyone can clear with normal raids and ARs being a step up.

I'll believe it when I see it, but this is a very optimistic view of how much job redesign could do for the game. I think it could improve it a bit, but I can't imagine it making hitting a striking dummy fun.

[Hallarem]

Actually had to interrupt something as a tank. Miracles do exist

[KillaKilala]

Obviously it's a troll.

But I legit find it disappointing how dungeons are a slog to repeat.
The discovery is great but playing it again is boring. It would be cool if there was some RNG, branching, mixing the mechanics around.

It's boring to replay because it's easy. What's the point of having RNG mechanics when you can just ignore them and survive having multiple vuln stacks? If there's no punishment for failing a mechanic I'm just gonna stay in one spot and eat all the aoes. Why would I bother dodging them if they do zero damage to me? I think mechanics should be easier to solve but more punishing if you fail.

[Jeeqbit]

I'll believe it when I see it, but this is a very optimistic view of how much job redesign could do for the game. I think it could improve it a bit, but I can't imagine it making hitting a striking dummy fun.

I think job design is not just about the complexity when hitting a striking dummy.

It's things like utility and affecting eachother. Teamplay. Something that has been completely eroded in favor of each player being responsible for themselves and the consequences only really affecting themselves, except of course in Savage where it's a complete 180 and one mistake wipes the entire party.

When you can affect other players, it opens up the ability for skill expression. Your affect on the other player may save them, or help them out in a way they are greatly appreciative of. That isn't a thing when tanks don't need healing, DPS can even heal themselves to a point that is sufficient in some dungeon fights, you can't lend MP, needing to lend enmity has been phased out, removing DoTs from eachother is irrelevant because they aren't devastating enough, etc.

Another way they could create skill expression is to give each boss an elemental strength and weakness. This would mean a Black Mage, for example, could spam ice attacks against dragons to deal more damage. They would still be able to kill them with their normal rotation, but "optimization" players would be able to figure out unique rotations for each boss that capitalize on the boss' weakness. They could even add physical attack weakness to certain bosses, which might make the melee combo on Red Mage worth spamming. And that would open up the ability for them to make new mechanics around this concept.

[Flowerscody2]

Something I dont see people talk about enough is how they went back on their promise of more challenging dungeons right after DT released. Think back to release- alexandria, origenics, and strayborough were actually giving some parties a tough time. Since then ppl complained they couldnt get carried through and every dungeom since has inched closer and closer back to the EW formula of super easy mind-numbing bosses. This is why im glad ppl that complain its too hard get dunked on by the community because those ppl are quite literally ruining the game for everyone else. Square needs to stop listening to the Im-only-here-for-story people or things will keep getting worse. This is a VIDEO GAME so if ur so unwilling to try and put any effort to clear something that is one of the easiest things the game offers then just dont play. Go watch a yt video and let the people who like the GAME have fun

[Altina_Orion]

I DEMAND ALL MY MSQ DUNGEONS TO BE AT LEAST EXTREME LEVEL! *flips my bangs*
WHERE IS THE MANAGER???

Have you seen the other side? LMAO

[Jeeqbit]

This is a VIDEO GAME so if ur so unwilling to try and put any effort to clear something that is one of the easiest things the game offers then just dont play. Go watch a yt video and let the people who like the GAME have fun

I think it's fine for people to want to play a game without being good at it. A lot of people genuinely play video games to pass the time; not necessarily to be good at them. While others play for a hardcore, sweaty challenge with mechanics that they can make spreadsheets and diagrams to solve.

This is an issue affecting some of my favorite single player games as well. They're moderately challenging, then casuals come and say that spending a day completing the game is too long and that it's so hard they need arrows to point where to go.

That's why I believe every game should have an easy mode and a hard mode, so it would probably be a start if they just embrace Duty Support as the easy mode and design it so that they carry people through the dungeon and "rescue" them out of mechanics.

Then they can make it so that without Duty Support, the dungeons are way more interesting.

[EusisLandale]

I think what the Variant Dungeons did was great as they had several slightly different versions of each of the bosses with a different mechanic... If they bothered implementing something like that onto regular dungeons, it might make them more interesting.

The problem there is that, like alternate paths and dead ends, players won't engage with it unless forced, and when they are it is engaged with to the absolute bare minium. The point of the Variants is to check out all the random variances you can find. The point of normal dungeons is to get in, get your loot and tomestones, and get out ASAP.
True randomization of the bosses would be fine, interesting even, but if you give players any control over it like with the Variant Dungeons, it'll get optimized down to "The bosses must be Jim v.3, Kim v.1, and Tim v.5" and anyone screwing that up runs the risk of getting kicked or otherwise harassed for slowing the group down.