For all those complaining about stale dungeons: from a beta player perspective

[TaleraRistain]

They didn't change anything about the actual dungeon mechanics of Halatali or Qarn, they only made changes to the bosses and those were pretty much universally well-received.

Especially love the final boss change on Qarn. Party tried to ignore the adds that didn't chain since nobody was killing the adds on that fight before the update and they wiped the floor with us. Halatali first boss went from a striking dummy to having actual mechanics again. Back in the day we had to kill the adds in the side areas on that but it was long past the point everyone just burned that thing. So it was nice to see it get the proteans. And all they really did on the final boss was get rid of the fire sprites so we have to actually kill the side area adds instead of ignoring them. Curious what we'll get with Cutter's.

[DiaDeem]

Here's the thing, OP

I understand what you're saying, but it feels like a copout.

The issue was never that the runners existed. I've been playing since Sept 2013, so I remember what dungeons used to be like. Though most runs would be quick, this wasn't always the case. Every now and then, someone in the party would comment: "Hey, I'd like to get all the XP and loot from the dungeon. Do you guys mind if we do a full-clear run?" and in my experience, people would usually say yes to that request. The choice existed.

The issue is not the runners. They're gonna run no matter what. The issue is that the option was taken away from us entirely. We should never applaud or accept less options where there used to be more. Because mobs no longer drop individual XP, and because gear progression is only vertical, there's no incentive for people to do full runs anymore. That's on the devs, not on the runners.

[Valence]

Yeah, this is the most egregious example of the dungeons they've redone for duty support. The most literal "boring hallway" in the game now. They didn't even bother making it nice to look at.

It looks super nice though in comparison to the camera nightmare of that brown claustrophobic sludge we had. I wish they got less lazy and kept some magitek lenses to collect, as well as the goo on some parts of the floor placed strategically where pulls happen or something.
It's visually a win for me, on the gameplay though...

[miraidensetsu]

About dungeons, they could integrate them more with the world.

For instance, with Sastasha, they could add a quest that:
- You get something from captain madison's quarter;
- You have to find and scout madison's victims out of there;
- You get a drink from that bar inside there (and interact with some of its customers);
- You farm some "fire pearls"
- You get some ink from the boss;

And so on...

[FuturePastNow]

This is why my first run of a new dungeon is always with Duty Support, I get to stop and read notes and look at all the little details they put into the environment. Then with players afterward it's full speed ahead.

[AyahM]

An easy fix would be to add rng dependent playable instances. It doesn't have to be much, maybe dungeon key items spawn in different places every time, or, different monsters spawn to kill, or different HP of those monsters change so some times it seems harder. I don't think this would be so hard in comparison to alternative changes.

This is what some evergreen games do to keep players coming back.

[Mikey_R]

An easy fix would be to add rng dependent playable instances. It doesn't have to be much, maybe dungeon key items spawn in different places every time, or, different monsters spawn to kill, or different HP of those monsters change so some times it seems harder. I don't think this would be so hard in comparison to alternative changes.

This is what some evergreen games do to keep players coming back.

If we go by how the players currently play a dungeon, having a key item spawn at different locations would just make players jot down the potential spawn locations (there are only going to be so many) and then methodically go through them in the most efficient way possible and, once they have it, ignore the rest. This same mentality was seen in the old Toto-Rak and collecting the Photospheres.

Changing mob packs would be interesting, as long as the mobs themselves are interesting. Suddenly getting stuck with a mob that can point blank AoE and another that does a doughnut AoE can limit melee capabilities or another spewing random AoEs to keep ranged on their toes etc.

Arbitrarily making a mobs HP higher for no reason also isn't going to add much. This one mob dies a bit slower for no reason, not the most exciting thing and potentially could be a bit frustrating. They should, however, look at the ilevel cap of dungeons and adjust it lower for all non-levelling dungeons, just so that gear let you overpower the enemies as much as they do now.

As for the topic, it wasn't speed runners that made dungeons a rush to the end, it was the general playerbase, especially from 2.0 launch at endgame. For those that weren't around then, the only way to cap your 300 Mythology tomes was to run dungeons, each dungeon awarded 30 tomes, so you needed to run a dungeon 10 times a week in order to cap, and this was before the roulette system was in the games. As you can probably imagine, people got very good at getting through these dungeons fast (which, at the time was Wanderer's Palace and Amdapor Keep), not necessarily because they were aiming for it, but more just due to repetition. This hadn't quite caught up with levelling dungeons yet as the exp from trash and the potential loot (which lasted much longer compared to now) was worth it. Once the roulette system came in and you had a higher level player going into a low level dungeon, they had no need for the gear and the exp was going to be pitiful, their exp was coming at the end of the dungeon so the incentive was there to finish the dungeon with as few distractions as possible.

Now, as others have pointed out, if you want to make side rooms, you need to give a reason to go there. The problem is, what reward do you entice them in with. Starting at something very basic, Gil. But, how much Gil? If we look at Sastasha as an extreme here, say you go through an optional area and you get 1000 Gil for it, that is probably a significant amount for a new player going through for the first time, but that is nothing for someone who is max level, so the incentive isn't there. The same can be said for exp. If we look at tomes, this varies depending on where the player is in the story as to what tomes they have available, even then, how much would you give someone, this is assuming they even need the tomes in the first place. Mounts and Minions, one and done once you get them, even if they have an RNG chance to spawn, the player has to want that minion/mount to go out of their way to get it.

Now, I know I am one for saying, if you see an issue that needs fixing, maybe make a suggestion, so, here is my suggestion. Rather than each optional area giving a specific thing, make them all drop the same item that will be used as a currency. The shop this currency is used in allows you to exchange them for a variety of things, including Gil, Tomes, Mounts, Minions, Glamour as well as some other, more unique things. Maybe relic items, soils, seeds, upgrade mats etc. Things can then be priced not based on doing 1 dungeon run, but maybe multiple ones. The inventory only gets updated as you meet certain requirements as well, for example, getting to level 50 and finishing the 2.0 MSQ allows you to buy Tomestones of Poetics.

This then ties in with something to add to dungeons and that is optional objectives. Saving the prisoners in Sastasha, killing all enemies in Tam-Tara etc. If you complete the objective, you get currency. To complete the objectives, you need to go into side areas and, depending on how long/hard they are, they can award a different amount of currency. Now, the important bit here is that you can only get currency whilst running synced. This is just to prevent a player from running through a dungeon unsync and quickly farming what they want solo, which defeats the point of the system in the first place. Yes, you will probably still get the people that just want to be in and out asap, but that isn't something that is going to go away, regardless of what system you implement.

[Mawlzy]

An easy fix would be to add rng dependent playable instances. It doesn't have to be much, maybe dungeon key items spawn in different places every time, or, different monsters spawn to kill, or different HP of those monsters change so some times it seems harder. I don't think this would be so hard in comparison to alternative changes.

This is what some evergreen games do to keep players coming back.

Might be something that could be incorporated into seasonal events to make them worth doing again. But "costs."

[Hallarem]

The whole game is stale

[Valence]

If we go by how the players currently play a dungeon, having a key item spawn at different locations would just make players jot down the potential spawn locations (there are only going to be so many) and then methodically go through them in the most efficient way possible and, once they have it, ignore the rest. This same mentality was seen in the old Toto-Rak and collecting the Photospheres.

While I do understand the logic, I do feel this is fear mongering as it's absolutely not true. Every toto rak run I've had had a 50/50 chance for the tank to go one of the two branches and people just followed. Never once I've seen someone talk about a wrong path, or mentioning a meta, or seeing any friction in parties between members.

Changing mob packs would be interesting, as long as the mobs themselves are interesting. Suddenly getting stuck with a mob that can point blank AoE and another that does a doughnut AoE can limit melee capabilities or another spewing random AoEs to keep ranged on their toes etc.

Maybe we should drop the chariots and dynamos for a change?

Now, I know I am one for saying, if you see an issue that needs fixing, maybe make a suggestion, so, here is my suggestion. Rather than each optional area giving a specific thing, make them all drop the same item that will be used as a currency. The shop this currency is used in allows you to exchange them for a variety of things, including Gil, Tomes, Mounts, Minions, Glamour as well as some other, more unique things. Maybe relic items, soils, seeds, upgrade mats etc. Things can then be priced not based on doing 1 dungeon run, but maybe multiple ones. The inventory only gets updated as you meet certain requirements as well, for example, getting to level 50 and finishing the 2.0 MSQ allows you to buy Tomestones of Poetics.

This then ties in with something to add to dungeons and that is optional objectives. Saving the prisoners in Sastasha, killing all enemies in Tam-Tara etc. If you complete the objective, you get currency. To complete the objectives, you need to go into side areas and, depending on how long/hard they are, they can award a different amount of currency. Now, the important bit here is that you can only get currency whilst running synced. This is just to prevent a player from running through a dungeon unsync and quickly farming what they want solo, which defeats the point of the system in the first place. Yes, you will probably still get the people that just want to be in and out asap, but that isn't something that is going to go away, regardless of what system you implement.

That's what I had in mind as well but I'd rather avoid adding even more tokens and currencies in a game that is already literally riddled with those and it's become such a maze especially at endgame hubs (or even wolves den pier).
But if that's what it takes then sure I guess even though I'd rather have something like a quest reward window at the end of a dungeon asking me if I want xp, tomes or whatever.