Can Devs reconsider body checks in large raids seriously?

[Volgia]

The bodycheck slop is not catering to raiders, it's a big part of what made raiding feel worse than it used to. The art of recovery goes missing all because SE refuses to address the insane amount of mitigation they have stuffed into job kits over the years.

Didn't this start with P8S and people getting angry over the tight DPS check on the first week?

I remember complaining about it on P12S, and people would explain that this is "the only avenue of difficulty they have left".

[Saraide]

Didn't this start with P8S and people getting angry over the tight DPS check on the first week?

I remember complaining about it on P12S, and people would explain that this is "the only avenue of difficulty they have left".

It has been a steady progression before p8s and it's not rooted in people complaining about dps checks, it's rooted in the bloated mitigation tools we have. With their refusal to address this, body checks really are the only avenue of difficulty they have left. It's gotten so bad that pandora's box, a mechanic designed to be tank lb3'd, can be survived without it by pooling everything together.

[Aco505]

It just so happens that Yoshi-P mentioned in an interview recently that one of the issues in Forked Tower may have been that they placed so much emphasis on a player's responsibility that it affects everyone else too much.

Which is a contradictory statement if we consider that after DRS was released, Yoshi-P expressed his intention to bring a similar large-scale raid in the future with mechanics that forced everyone or most of the raid to do it properly to succeed, since DRS was mostly designed around individual responsibility.

Body checks will always be a thing somewhere. The question is how annoying and late into the fight.

[Jeeqbit]

Which is a contradictory statement if we consider that after DRS was released, Yoshi-P expressed his intention to bring a similar large-scale raid in the future with mechanics that forced everyone or most of the raid to do it properly to succeed, since DRS was mostly designed around individual responsibility.

I don't remember that part but I know that he wanted to make more large-scale content in general at the time and then after how solo-oriented Endwalker was he wanted to get back to that. And I support lots of people being together because it makes it feel more like an MMORPG.

[Miguelstein]

I just don't know why Forked tower has so many body checks and a limit to being raised. If you died three times and nothing else, well, you can leave the instance and the rest can try ending the raid. You can practice to die less next time.
Right now it's:

oops I got bumped the wrong direction at snowballs, guess we will all wipe and leave the instance.

And then the raid leader will start a search and destroy for that specific guy and he will get depressed and never touch FT again (this happened to a guy last week in a discord server ,yes (no it wasn't me))

[Valence]

What worked in Heavensward was:

This is not to disagree with your bullet points, to the contrary, but what worked in HW was also that the battle system still had a semblance of meaning with resource scarcity, MP and resource management, and organic threats that weren't about binary DDR fail states but more about gradual threat increases (bosses buffing themselves progressively and/or debuffing the party, adds or mechanical systems gradually overwhelming the party through pressure, etc).

[Jeeqbit]

This is not to disagree with your bullet points, to the contrary, but what worked in HW was also that the battle system still had a semblance of meaning with resource scarcity, MP and resource management, and organic threats that weren't about binary DDR fail states but more about gradual threat increases (bosses buffing themselves progressively and/or debuffing the party, adds or mechanical systems gradually overwhelming the party through pressure, etc).

True, the almost complete removal of the holy trinity that made players actually rely on eachother and potentially fail a mechanic also just forces them to artificially create a snowball effect in the raid itself such as 99999999999 damage.

[Doomed_Raven]

I haven't gotten to this content, but punishing everyone for one person reminds me of a useless science teacher I had in secondary school. She'd make the whole class line up outside if one person spoke, no one learned jack from her. CBSIII should rework that, it'll also make one person messing up take a lot of abuse and bullying no doubt, which isn't good.

[TaleraRistain]

Didn't this start with P8S and people getting angry over the tight DPS check on the first week?

I remember complaining about it on P12S, and people would explain that this is "the only avenue of difficulty they have left".

Which is kind of funny because we can see in this tier that it's not. We all curse the add phase in m6s but it's an interesting way to put some challenge back in with groups having to focus on AoE rotations and target priority. And body checks aren't necessarily bad. They used them effectively last tier and just didn't have body checks upon body checks upon body checks.

Also some good ideas in this thread about debuffs, though I've found the surefire way to get people to do the mechanics is a damage down which we see more of.

[Chasingstars]

I just don't know why Forked tower has so many body checks and a limit to being raised. If you died three times and nothing else, well, you can leave the instance and the rest can try ending the raid. You can practice to die less next time.
Right now it's:

oops I got bumped the wrong direction at snowballs, guess we will all wipe and leave the instance.

And then the raid leader will start a search and destroy for that specific guy and he will get depressed and never touch FT again (this happened to a guy last week in a discord server ,yes (no it wasn't me))

The raise limit is a baldesion arsenal quirk, which they based forked tower off that, same with the entrance system. As for body checks, they just feel its a sufficient way to challenge players.

Not defending their words or actions, just what they stated themselves.