A weary player sees hope in the new update

[Gramul]

Yea and it will no doubt come in 2.0 as I said.

I dont see the point complaining about something we have no way of knowing about, if in 2.0 there is still no mid level content or hard mode stuff then sure whine as much as you like but as I say they have much more important things like finishing off 2.0.

I complain because I want to emphasize how important long term content it is for an MMO so they don't mess up. I want to be sure they understand what core players are looking for because I don't have much to look at here aside from a few achievements and vague hints at 'more difficult content for 2.0'. I don't know what they think that means other than making leveling 'more difficult'. Long term content isn't just grinding levels.

Better you hear a few of us complain now than many later.
And I am not whining. I never whine.

[Aarik]

To go from 32 to 38 in a DoH class in a day would require non-stop exp books and leves. Just because you spent 2m on exp books doesn't mean crafting is too "casual" or easy.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong, and incredibly presumptuous. Here's the facts: In that time, I used NO exp books, no bonuses, only leves. Moreso, I wasn't even paying attention while I crafted. I was reading for a college course of mine while I crafted, and simply listened to the craft to know when to continue. So, yes, Suneater, I DID go from 32-38 in approximately eight hours, and it was without any buffs, other than guild support for the synth. And you want to make the process FASTER? Even, worse, INSTANT? They already have an ability that does this to some extent already, it's called Hasty Hand. This isn't enough? How easy to you want it to be, five instant-crafts per level? The entire point of making a crafting class is that it's content for a different type of player. Some like to kill things non-stop. Some like to gather, and some like to create. Of course, there are many combinations, but the fact remains that crafting should not be watered down to the point where absolutely anyone who tries it for a whim is can get to the top in a matter of a week, if not days. This 'instant crafting' idea of yours would do just that. We have hasty hand already, use it, if you want to so badly.

[DeadRiser]

I don't level up crafts because they are boring and time consuming. I have one that is above 40 (47 I think) and that's it. There is no challenge to leveling up a craft.

[Tureni]

Hmmm, well it seems this thread has become pretty popular! Regardless of opinion, that's good; it brings attention to it. But moving on, I've noticed a few things people have assumed and/or misunderstood that I feel I must clear, when it comes to my stance.

Firstly, the Primal Battles. Some apparently are under the impression that I was saying I didn't like the battles themselves, or they were too easy. This is untrue; I find the battles very challenging, and very refreshing. That being said, what I was contesting was the ease in which you can continuously enter these battles. I know I made a comparison to FFXI's BCNMs, and how much more sacrifice it took to get in those, but I'm not saying that we should emulate FFXI when it comes to Primals...but we should tone down the utter ease at least SOME. Think about it. For example, Ifrit: you need, to enter and beat him once and have access to chest, five Inferno Totems, yes? These totems have a drop rate of, for all intents and purposes, 100%. The mobs that they drop from can be EASILY soloed by all classes/jobs. It takes at most, five minutes of killing Amal'jaa to have access to what is considered one of the "top tier" battles that FFXIV can provide. Now, I'm not saying up it to 300 totems and cut the drop rate to 20% or some extreme like this, but do SOMETHING that tones it down a bit. This would serve to do two things. One: It would make the items obtained from this battle hold quite a bit more value, since it actually takes a little work to enter these fights, and two: it would decrease server load: instead of everyone and their family spamming Primal fights back-to-back, non-stop, you would have a steady flow of people entering these battles, not a complete flood of 3/4 the server trying to get in all the time.

Lastly, people seem to be under the impression that I'm here only for the challenge of hard crafts. Once more, this is not true. I only focused on the Darksteel items because, as I've said before, they are the very first items/battles/content I've seen that is actually outside the bounds of what is considered "casual" gaming.

Now that the misunderstandings are covered, I'd like to reply to the argument of "skill versus time". While I do agree that skill must be a factor in a game like this (indeed, it's quite essential), you cannot simply dismiss time as utterly irrelevant: that's utter arrogance, and the epitome of self-entitlement. Going by that argument, should FFXIV ever get the equivalent to FFXI's relic/mystic weapons, they should be accessible for simply putting in a day or two of 'skillful' gaming, and tada! You have the most powerful items in the game, bar none! The problem with that argument is twofold. Firstly, those items, to put it bluntly, should never be accessible by casual gamers. They were designed for what the extreme players, those who are utterly obsessed with the game. I'll admit, those items would not be for me; I would not be willing to pour THAT much time into this game...but there are those who crave just that, and who are you to deny them? Secondly, having everything in a game accessible within a few day's time just isn't economical, for FFXIV or any other MMO. When ALL content is so accessible, those extreme players, even the moderate ones, find themselves having accomplished all the game has to offer, very quickly. I know you've seen it happen already: people get to the top on FFXIV, find nothing else to do, get bored, and eventually drift away and simply don't log on again. This is not conducive to a successful MMO. I'm sorry if this offends you, but you CANNOT have all content so easily obtained, and in such a short time. There needs to be content for all 'tiers' of players, not just casual. Saying otherwise would show a great amount of self-entitlement; for me, or any other.

I am in total agreeance with this. I truly hope come 2.0 we get the content both sides deserve challenging/rewarding for the hardcore players and simple/easy for players with less time (casual players). I also miss working hard for my gil. Gil is handed out like candy in this game as far as I've seen..

An "even match" enemy same level as me should present a challenge to me, I feel. Currently it does not (at least on THM). Maybe this changes as I level higher I'm not sure yet. I don't think they need to up the challenge drastically, but balance the game a little more so it's not a breeze to get through fights.

[Tureni]

That would be content? xD

My stance on this whole issue is relatively brief.
Yoshi has indicated on many occasions that he believes in an ADVANCING level cap, rather than the long time hard cap of FFXI.
Should this game survive, he intends that the level cap increase every year or so until it reaches 99.

In relative terms to FFXI, and setting aside that whole now 99 cap, Level 50 in this game is half way to the top, which by FFXI standards was Level 37. I will repeat that... LEVEL 37. It should not take a ridiculous amount of time to reach Level 50 by that standard. And i will also point out that you see at Level 50, the exp needed for 51 is 110,000. Thus every level afterwards will likely require a minimum average of 10,000 more exp per level, meaning that the required exp for level 98 to 99 can be NO LESS THAN 480,000 exp.

Now... Consider the current rate of EXP and tell me how getting every job from level 90-99 for a total of around 4 MILLION exp per job just from 90-98 alone, let alone all the levels before it and that it is PER JOB is going to be too fast?

As for insanely difficult content, i think there is a mandate right now given the situation that super hard content is being left for after the establishment of 2.0 I'm not sure why this is the case exactly, but it seems to be the case. Yoshi has pointed out that he intends to cater to the 'hardcore players'. I suppose though, if the current cap is relative to Level 37 in FFXI, it might be a bit much to have anything too ridiculously difficult. No FFXI content at level 37 or below was all that hard, although i did get killed by the bunnies in Ronfaure.

I thought the same way in FFXI, but then they lowered the amount of experience required for each successive level compared to the levels before. I guess we'll have to wait and see how this works out in FFXIV.

[Ruisu]

MMO's and offline RPG's are completely different games. A developer can design content that will take the average person x amount of hours to play through, but once you throw in the multiplayer aspect of mmo's it becomes significantly harder to create content. MMOs are different in that while your playing a game, your playing as one of many in an alternate world. You are not the super hero of the story, your a nameless face fighting for your niche. So comparing previous FF games to the mmo counter parts is not really a good comparison at all.

I...wasn't comparing the offline games to the MMOs at all. I was just stating that the series has never really been difficult, unlike what the OP has stated.

[Preypacer]

Now... Consider the current rate of EXP and tell me how getting every job from level 90-99 for a total of around 4 MILLION exp per job just from 90-98 alone, let alone all the levels before it and that it is PER JOB is going to be too fast?

This is assuming that xp gain isn't "tweaked" to make it faster/easier to get through those upper levels to offset the increased xp requirement per level. This is something that, believe it or not, many players these days are demanding, not merely asking for.

I would never have believed SE would add 24 levels to FFXI and simultaneously speed up leveling to the point that people could go from 30 to cap inside of a week just by PL'ing in Abyssea. But they did it. Your scenario is entirely dependent on the assumption that Yoshi won't take a route similar to that. He has already expressed a receptiveness to PL'ing, so I can't say I'd be surprised if he did go that way. I would be very disappointed, however.

There are people out there who are 1000% convinced that MMORPGs are all about the 10%-20% of content that comprises End Game. These people believe, and will argue 'til the cows come home that leveling up should take as little time as possible, as little as a week. If Yoshi does indeed hold to placing more emphasis on the journey and doesn't facilitate those people's needs to level as fast as they want to, expect there to be a huge outcry over it on the forums and in-game.

[Enfarious]

I see the relationship you're trying to create between real-life skill sets and in game skill sets, but it really isn't there.
In game you have a cap on how good your character can be at crafting. Maximum level with the best available crafting gear.

Real-life skill sets are different. As you said yourself, someone who plays soccer for 20 years is better than someone who plays for 2, and someone who plays for 25 will likely be better than someone who plays for 20. There is always room for improvement. (Until your body starts falling apart from years of physical abuse, but that's not really important to the point)

The point is, in this game the cap on skill in an area like crafting is clearly defined and quickly (relatively) reached.

I suppose, that being said, that there is no other way for a crafter to define himself / herself among the player-base other than through the implementation of items such as the ones the OP crafted.

Is it considered being skillful to set down and craft for hours? Not by my definition.
I do consider it to require a high level of dedication though. And if that's what gives you gratification, then by all means do it. Being dedicated to something, in many cases, is more deserving of respect than being skillful anyway.

Actually this is exactly the point, when you've reached that point where you begin to deteriorate in real life skills you've reached your "cap" and actually past it, and begin on a back slide. Everyone regardless of endeavor will eventually reach a point where they just stop getting better at it. In that vein as a person works on a skill they have to do things that are progressively harder to continue to get better. Invariably that person reaches a point where they simply cannot improve any further, wether because they've truly mastered a thing, a golfer who can hole-in-one every hole on every course, or because they're used up and skills begin to deteriorate, a football player who destroys their rotator cuff.
The parallel they use in video games(rpgs mostly though others do use some similar growth patterns) is real life, again I said somewhere else, fantasy is based on reality because it makes it easier to suspend disbelief, allowing a player to more readily accept the fantasy and enjoy it.

On the point of pacing, this game currently is insanely fast and the dev teams know it, it was intentional to allow a wider cross section of players to experience things before this version is torn down. This also means it's going away, slowing down and perhaps the sense of accomplishment that does come with time spent is restored. With that hopefully they find a balance better than what XI had in it's prime, which was so much time spent on grind aspects that it became annoying not fun and in the end just frustrating. Getting multiple jobs to 75 pre-abyssea wasn't an enjoyable process, for me at least, but it did fill in time between more enjoyable content like dyna sea sky nyzul all of which also took substantial amounts of time, and if you didn't use others guides typically they took a fair number of fails to clear them all which gives both the sense of accomplishment for doing something that has a difficulty level high enough to turn others away, also the time spent farming relic, pops, w/e again that grind time. It's all about balance, if I can get a job to 50 in a day I'd just as soon just start at 50, if I have to put in a bit of time to get it there, and that time is spent among friends where getting new skills can bring with them a little bit of enjoyment in itself, all the better. For those that played XI remember when you finally got to 51 and could learn freeze, that feeling, cause it took time, cause it took effort, cause you had to persevere. The friends you got to brag to when you got your first 75. Knowing your approaching elite as you finish meriting a job. Getting to fight AV, getting killed by Shadow Lord. It's the time that made all of those things worth something, getting them in a week, getting access to them in a week, getting the drops in your first run hell after 20 runs would cheapen all those experiences to the point that it wouldn't matter and there'd be no sense of anything, but again if the time spent is 15244 runs through a dungeon it doesn't make you elite for having the drop, it makes you a fk'in masochist for putting yourself through that many of the same thing.

Balance Balance Balance

That's what's missing at every turn, I argue with myself about what I think on an issue and always come back in the end to...

Balance Balance Balance

Or the lack there of.

[Malakhim]

Amen

The Final Fantasies OP played and the Final Fantasies I've played must have been completely different games. I can list the truly challenging moments in this whole series in my hands, and 99% of those are related either to optional bosses (hello, Yazmat) or some of the (optional) mini-games and sidequests (1.000 jumps in FFIX's jump rope minigame, anyone?). And even those are just a matter of doing tedium leveling and / or repeating the same stuff over and over till you beat it.

In fact, there's only one mandatory content in the series (excluding FFXI) I would call challenging: Ramza VS Wiegraf solo fight + Velius battle right after in Final Fantasy Tactics. I wonder how many players had to start from scratch because they had no backup save....

If anyone is buying Final Fantasy for the challenge, they're doing it very wrong.

If anything, that fight was more like a "I hope you were grinding for X hours or you're fucked!" :P

But seriously, completely agreed. I don't understand where anyone gets the idea that Final Fantasy was ever a bastion of "challenge" or that older Final Fantasy games before _insert arbitrary entry selection here_ were totally challenging either for that matter. In fact the only "complex" strategy I can think of was casting reflect on yourself to bounce back magic.

Takes a real tactical genius to figure THAT one out apparently.

Oh, I'm sorry. I had no idea that the feeling of satisfaction and entertainment people recieve from long term tasks was invalid.
People have different tastes.

Fair enough. Some people must think cheaply of their time if instead of desiring continuous engagement they'd prefer staring at paint drying.

[Chain]

I'm sick of WoW as much as the next person but seriously if you got level 40 in 3 days back that early in the game you were playing every waking minute. There's a difference between hardcore and stupid.