yoshi what are you doing to steel cyclone ):?

[Delsus]

Warrior is both a tanking job and a DPS job. I wouldn't say that Paladin is both a tanking job and a healing job. They've really only got Holy Succor and that's it for healing others, Paladin is solely a tanking job and it does not excel at that.

By the same notion, if any job could heal better than a White Mage there would be an uproar. Why? Because the only thing that White Mage excels at is healing, that is its sole role. This is why there is a problem with Paladin and Warrior. The only thing Paladin can excel at is the tanking role and Warrior beats the pants off of it in the tanking role.

For Paladin to be useful, it must excel at the tanking role more so than any other job because that is all it is made to do. Paladin should, at the very least, be the safe tank. Warrior can be used as tank to kill things faster but it should not have higher overall survivability than Paladin.

PLD is designed as a self sufficiant job, they are designed (admittedly very poorly) on healing themselves to keep hate, whereas WAR is desinged on raw damage to keep hate (for the tanking role) here is the problem, PLD does not have the MP to be much use, if PLD was given alot more MP or thier cure ability cost less MP, they would instanly become useful.

In FFXI (I know this again) as long as a PLD had refresh they could keep healing themselves to keep hate, if it was a fight that required PLD/NIN (no provoke) this was even more important, it also gives healers a chance (bombshell inc) to heal DDs which allows people to use DDs in big fights.

Buff PLD's MP and lower thier cure abilities MP cost, to make them instantly useful for tanking.

[Krausus]

This is not actually a whm/blm comparison to war/pld. The only reason i used Blm in my example is because the person i replied to has a thm class as main in his profile so i attempted to relate to that. Nevertheless, my point in that reply was more along the lines of what Delsus mentioned above. It was specifically against the idea of just buffing up other jobs instead of nerfing jobs where needed.



Ok, so Both War and Pld are intentionally designed as tanks primarily with a secondary role of DPS for War and Healer for Pld.

There are a few problems with this design when compared to the rest of the jobs and this is where the issue lies.

What exactly are the secondary roles of Mnk and Drg? How defined and how efficient are they? No one invites mnk or Drg with a secondary role in mind. They are simply seen as DD. If anything, you could say Evasion for mnk and TP for DRG eventually may translate into a better DPS outcome (whether thru bit more survivability or more WS).

For a melee, the 2 main areas (as of now atleast) that they fit into are tanking and DPS. Fortunately for war (and unfortunately for others), War excels in both. All the other melee really suck at any clear-cut defined secondary role, especially in the harder battles.

In this case, one of 2 solutions is required. Either War gets a nerf on the secondary role, i.e Dps nerf and becomes as crappy at that secondary role as the rest of the melee jobs are at their secondary role or.. all the other jobs get a big boost and well defined secondary roles that actually makes a real significant impact in any battle.
Trust me, i am more than happy going as a Monk evasion tank in an Ifrit battle but i don't see that happening anytime soon.

That is the whole idea of balance here. You can't equate Tank + DPS to any of the other puny combinations we have at the moment. Tanking and DPS'ing in the same time is overkill. This is what makes War problematic balance-wise and is the reason they're favoured in almost all situations.

Generally in just about every MMO created (not all but most) tank classes always have a secondary role, where as DPS usually only have the one role. Just because the tank classes have two roles(which is common and which mentioned before PLDs secondary is weak compared to WAR) doesn't mean that every job has to have a secondary in fact the only other job that does is BRD.

People are stuck in this linear view that there should always only be one main tank. Views like that limit the ability to increase the amount of content playable due to the fact of waiting for said class to begin (right now if WAR is not available a PLD can always substitute or vice versa) We seen this when CNJ became "the" healer of the game instead of both CNJ and THM being good enough for either main healing.

As for the comment concerning boosting DPS roles (BLM/DRG/MNK) because of how well WAR secondary is any good DRG/MNK/BLM will out dps a good WAR already so I dont see the point. I agree Steel Cyclone is a bit OP and should be adjusted I just dont agree with the reasons. Reason should be because the class is to powerful because of being able to use steel cyclone every 30 seconds not because WAR is a better tank than PLD which is debatable in every point aside from damage output and HP levels.

My biggest issue are coments made by folks that obviously have no clue and are just jumping on the nerf bandwagon (you excluded of course because you do have a recollection of some of the issues)

[Duuude007]

Warrior damage output gives better enmity than any stacked + enmity gear that is exclusive to PLD.
Warrior has superior HP, Defense and resistance ratings, without a shield.

How does this not make them the end all, be all tank?

[Krausus]

Warrior damage output gives better enmity than any stacked + enmity gear that is exclusive to PLD.
Warrior has superior HP, Defense and resistance ratings, without a shield.

How does this not make them the end all, be all tank?

is anyone saying they are not superior? I dont think anyone in this thread is.

[Morticous]

is anyone saying they are not superior? I dont think anyone in this thread is.

They shouldnt be as far as tanking goes. Thats the point.

[Krausus]

They shouldnt be as far as tanking goes. Thats the point.

agreed, but I also dont think PLD should be superior either, I think they should both fairly be just as viable with both focusing on a different strength, WAR more DPS, PLD more survivability.

[Morticous]

agreed, but I also dont think PLD should be superior either, I think they should both fairly be just as viable with both focusing on a different strength, WAR more DPS, PLD more survivability.

Yes war should be the riskier of the two putting more damage out but less Def where PLD should have far more def as a much safer but less dps tank.

[Krausus]

Yes war should be the riskier of the two putting more damage out but less Def where PLD should have far more def as a much safer but less dps tank.

I think that would be ideal, SE really needs to re-evaluate the PLD.

[Squiggles]

still wanna know what hes doing to steel cyclone...

not "pld vs war" debating.

[Duuude007]

still wanna know what hes doing to steel cyclone...

not "pld vs war" debating.

WAR should have a niche that they are the ideal tank, and PLD should have a niche where it is instead an ideal tank.

Overpowered skills like steel cyclone contribute to how much more irrelevant PLD has become to WAR. That is why it is still on topic, because it is a big reason why Yoshi decided to "nerf" steel cyclone.