@Casuals , do you think the message has gotten through?

[Volgia]

The problem we all agree on, is that, for the last year, they've released nothing except raids. So, if you don't enjoy raiding, you've got nothing to do. We might as well not exist. Nobody's looking to take away your precious raids, we just want other options and stuff to do for ourselves.

But they haven't released "Nothing but raids", the only new raid thing they released was Chaotic. Everything else has been the same content patch release since Stormblood.

The problem isn't the lack of varied new content, the problem is the normal content has become dull and boring, they decimated most of the complex systems pre-Shadowbringers and now we're just on that late stage version of the game where no one is happy.

The game has also fostered a strong divide between casual/hardcore content. So if anything in normal mode gives you a bit of friction (STrayborough, M2N) people come here in tears asking why they don't toss that onto the hardcore pile, or wonder why no one is catering towards them specifically.

You accused me of arguing in bad faith and nitpicking so IDK if responding to you is productive, but this is my stance on the matter.

[Erzaa]

But they haven't released "Nothing but raids", the only new raid thing they released was Chaotic. Everything else has been the same content patch release since Stormblood.

Chaotic and Forked Tower: Blood are both new raids that are inaccessible to casual players, there's a whole thread with finger pointing over who deserves to go in and how hard or easy it is to complete.

Meanwhile, we get, what? Beast Tribes?

The problem isn't the lack of varied new content, the problem is the normal content has become dull and boring, they decimated most of the complex systems pre-Shadowbringers and now we're just on that late stage version of the game where no one is happy.

So, everything should be dull and boring except raids? Are raids all that matter? Why? Says who?

The game has also fostered a strong divide between casual/hardcore content. So if anything in normal mode gives you a bit of friction (STrayborough, M2N) people come here in tears asking why they don't toss that onto the hardcore pile, or wonder why no one is catering towards them specifically.

It's done no such thing. We've done it to ourselves. Casuals accusing hardcores of wanting difficulty increases, hardcores accusing casuals of wanting to dumb the gameplay down, as if those are the two only options. And each time SE listens to whichever voice is the loudest, they get accused of siding with one or the other. It's completely possible to make both sides happy.

You accused me of arguing in bad faith and nitpicking so IDK if responding to you is productive, but this is my stance on the matter.

You are though. You've gone on record saying "What we expect from an MMO?", as if every single MMO on the market just focuses on raids (SWtoR doesn't exist, SWG didn't exist, OSRS doesn't exist...) or "We're incapable of socialising" (what exactly are the Mentors and Sprouts doing in NN when they ask questions or make puns or mess around or ask for help? What about people who just sit around sometimes and chat? Is that not socialising? Is socialising only laugh at silly deaths in a hard raid to you?).

This raid first mentality is archaic. It wasn't even popular when it was popular. It's very possible for smart developers and designers to sit down and have a discussion and try and make new things and improve old things. The want just needs to be there.

And no, I don't want you to lose your raids, but trying to say this is an MMO, you just can't socialise, just raid and try it out, helps nobody. And the numbers show it. People are leaving in droves.

Just because I play an MMO doesn't meant I want to always socialise either. Sometimes I just want to be left alone, but like the feeling of being in a living, breathing world. Just like, in real life, just because I smile to a passerby and say Good Morning!, doesn't mean I want to go to the pub with them.

[Volgia]

Chaotic and Forked Tower: Blood are both new raids that are inaccessible to casual players, there's a whole thread with finger pointing over who deserves to go in and how hard or easy it is to complete..

Chaotic is hardcore, Forked Tower isn't inaccesible at all. Tons of casual players get through it just fine.

So, everything should be dull and boring except raids? Are raids all that matter? Why? Says who?

No one. You're the one making that conclusion in your head, even savage players would benefit from the regular being more engaging, you think we like grinding the same 4 fights for months at a time?

It's done no such thing. We've done it to ourselves. Casuals accusing hardcores of wanting difficulty increases, hardcores accusing casuals of wanting to dumb the gameplay down, as if those are the two only options. And each time SE listens to whichever voice is the loudest, they get accused of siding with one or the other. It's completely possible to make both sides happy.

Oh it has 100% done it. Famous YoshiP words, "If you wanna have fun healing, go do it in Ultimate", it's shifting blame, we didn't ask for the gameplay to only be significant in hard content, THEY did that.

Social commentary

This MMO has an aggressive amount of content you can do without talking to anyone, what it barely has is any content you can form a community around. You can go do the whole MSQ, PVP, Crafting and Gathering, the normal raids, the trials, the 24mans without having to talk to a single soul. It's another 90/10 ratio.

You might not know this but savage players aren't happy with the game either, our jobs and sense of challenge has been slowly stripped every expansion, and it was because CBU3 shifted it's design elements for mass appeal, it was not for the benefit of hardcore players in mind.

[Erzaa]

Chaotic is hardcore, Forked Tower isn't inaccesible at all. Tons of casual players get through it just fine.

Spare me the gaslighting with Forked Tower isn't inaccessible, when all evidence is contrary to that.

No one. You're the one making that conclusion in your head, even savage players would benefit from the regular being more engaging, you think we like grinding the same 4 fights for months at a time?

Of course you'd benefit from it. We all would. So, why is Forked Tower inaccessible to anyone but preformed large groups? And, as much as you might feel like grinding the same 4 fights for months at a time is not engaging (and I understand), that's still alot more content that any casual gets.

Oh it has 100% done it. Famous YoshiP words, "If you wanna have fun healing, go do it in Ultimate", it's shifting blame, we didn't ask for the gameplay to only be significant in hard content, THEY did that.

Ah yes! Also the infamous, "they're dumbing down the game because of casuals complaining". Do you really believe, casual players, who, on the one hand, can't do a rotation to save their lives according to these forums, and on the other, also complain about kits being too complicated, according to the forums? Casual players don't give a damn what an optimal rotation is, or getting buffs lined up.

When I'm in a Trial, or Normal Raid, or Alliance Raid, I'll never even bother checking if my buff lines up with anything at all, barring the occasional is there another scholar and I wait to use my Chain Stratagem or not. What other players are doing around me, is of no consequence, as long as the boss ends up on the floor and I win.

The job homogenisation is entirely on the dev team wanting to make balancing easier, and raiders demanding an easier time in lining up their different GCD cooldowns. If it were up to me, there'd be no such thing as buff alignment whatsoever, and the abilities would be no more than a single bar, and each would be different, unique and could be used in varying situations reactively. But, that's just me.

The whole idea that casuals are somehow to blame for job homogenisation is one of the biggest, fattest lies ever spewed on these forums, bar none.

This MMO has an aggressive amount of content you can do without talking to anyone, what it barely has is any content you can form a community around. You can go do the whole MSQ, PVP, Crafting and Gathering, the normal raids, the trials, the 24mans without having to talk to a single soul. It's another 90/10 ratio.

One, how's this a bad thing? Two, what's your point? All of those things are one and done. They've got no replayability whatsoever.

Why is having something fun, entertaining and casual, something that you can pick up and drop on the fly with others, somehow impacting your raiding experience? Again, socialising isn't just forming a raid group. Just because I don't want to lookup a guide, read it for two hours, spend another hour hitting a dummy to make sure I have a perfect rotation, then find a PF or join a static, just so I can get to play the game, how does that impact you?

Am I coming into your static and telling you to drop everything and come sit by me while I craft or something?

You might not know this but savage players aren't happy with the game either, our jobs and sense of challenge has been slowly stripped every expansion, and it was because CBU3 shifted it's design elements for mass appeal, it was not for the benefit of hardcore players in mind.

I'm well aware nobody's really happy with the game right now. But, of the two sides, you're the ones getting at least something for your subscription cost. Trying to persuade casual players that they should just be happy with 4 hours on a weekend, for a single patch, then waiting four months, or joining a Discord group and jumping through hoops, while you go out and replay your Savage raids and Chaotic Raids and 48 man preformed Forked Tower groups, over and over for gear, or mount, or whatever it is you do.

Don't think for a second I didn't see your glib remark on the other thread about how Forked Tower doesn't need a Normal mode.

[Volgia]

Ah yes! Also the infamous, "they're dumbing down the game because of casuals complaining".

When I said "They" I meant CBU3, I didn't say the casual players, lol. That's why I added at the very end that CBU3 did this not with savage players in mind, but with the idea of complete mass appeal.

Spare me the gaslighting with Forked Tower isn't inaccessible, when all evidence is contrary to that.

You can literally walk into the instance by putting your cipher in and waiting for your other 45 randos to join. You don't need too much of a special expertise in the game to clear it.

Even if I agreed that FT is hardcore, it's still only 3 things: Chaotic, FT and Ultimate. You aren't talking about the rest of things they have released: ALL of Occult Crescent. All of Cosmic Exploration. All the hunt marks and fates on DT's overworld, the 3 alliance raids, the 7 expert MSQ dungeons, the Job Quests, Deep Dungeon, Manderville Quests, seasonal events and I can go on and on, the majority of what they release is casual.

Casual and Hardcore content only kind of share extremes and savages and that's it.

The argument of "it's not very engaging" doesn't matter, that's another subject, but they're certainly NOT appealing to hardcore raiders in this game.

[Erzaa]

You can literally walk into the instance by putting your cipher in and waiting for your other 45 randos to join. You don't need too much of a special expertise in the game to clear it.

Can I? Then explain to me the body check requirements, the specific Phantom Job requirements, the whole bruhaha over snipers, the rez restrictions, the getting kicked out in less than 5 minutes because some random first mechanic just throws you off the map, and the losing an entire level and having to grind it up again for no discernible reason?

I don't know what world raiders live in, but that's not pickup and go casual content.

Casual content is something you can go in with whomever and limp to the end. Then do better the next time, and the next time even better, until you can do it perfectly.

It's not, this person didn't stand here at the right second, so now everyone's dead, and it's certainly not, I didn't peer into the future to know in advance that I had to stand three steps to the left so I don't die and get booted back into the zone with a lost level.

Even if I agreed that FT is hardcore, it's still only 3 things: Chaotic, FT and Ultimate. You aren't talking about the rest of things they have released: ALL of Occult Crescent. All of Cosmic Exploration. All the hunt marks and fates on DT's overworld, the 3 alliance raids, the 7 expert MSQ dungeons, the Job Quests, Deep Dungeon, Manderville Quests, seasonal events and I can go on and on, the majority of what they release is casual.

MSQ of a patch, Hildy is what? 4 hours worth of content? Then it's DF fodder for 20 minutes a day? Same for AR.
I'm not even sure you can qualify Hunts as content, but whatever. It's like saying, you haven't caught every fish, so what're you complaining about?

Everything else you're mentioning is just niche. Savage Raids, Ultimate Raids, Baldesion Arsenal, Forked Tower, Deep Dungeons, all niche content. There's nothing wrong with it existing, it should exist, but it's never going to be popular to the majority playerbase, nor should it be trying to force itself to be, that's the point.

I'm not going to tell another casual player, well you haven't cleared PotD, so you've got nothing to complain about.

And again, I'm not saying raiders have it easy, but you definitely are having alot more to do than the rest of us. It's been a raid heavy year, between EX, Savage, Ultimate, Chaotic, Forked Tower, and another Ultimate confirmed too. Plus the upcoming EX again, the Unreals. It's all raids, everywhere raids.

Casual and Hardcore content only kind of share extremes and savages and that's it.

They don't share savages. 20% - 30% of your playerbase isn't sharing anything. Savage isn't casual, even when it comes to Unreal or EX, it's a toss up for alot of people if it qualifies as casual or not, but Savage definitely isn't.

The argument of "it's not very engaging" doesn't matter, that's another subject, but they're certainly NOT appealing to hardcore raiders in this game.

Of course it matters. Content for everyone, should be for everyone, everyone should be engaged and having fun. That was the entire point of Field Ops, that's what everyone else who doesn't raid, spent the last year waiting patiently for, barring forum complainers. That's why they had to ban comments live on their live letter when they were getting torn to shreds.

[Valence]

I don't know what world raiders live in, but that's not pickup and go casual content.

Raiders tend to be a little deluded when it comes to what a casual is. They think a casual is that shapeless blob that will consume absolutely everything that's not savage content, and that they're the prime audience for everything. Or that said casual content is one uniform blob that is to be consumed whole in its entirety. Being a casual gamer doesn't mean being wired to enjoy fate farming until you die of boredom, hunt trains, doh/dol content, maps content, deep dungeons, dailies and leveling, housing, roleplay, msq and sidequests and everything in between OR nothing at all. Casuals aren't binary critters.

If anything the real issue that most casual players raise is how poor and thin casual pve has grown in comparison to raiding.

As a raider the time spent between casual pve and savage+ content probably lies around a 10:90 ratio. Now that I've stopped raiding, casual pve went up a little to cover what savage fed me otherwise in gear, but that ain't much.

[SpritePR]

chaotic is not hardcore at all while FTB requires hardcore commitment. I cleared chaotic in a few hours vs needing a week+ for ftb. (you can get carried through both but ftb requires more effort overall)

[Altina_Orion]

But they haven't released "Nothing but raids", the only new raid thing they released was Chaotic. Everything else has been the same content patch release since Stormblood.

The problem isn't the lack of varied new content, the problem is the normal content has become dull and boring, they decimated most of the complex systems pre-Shadowbringers and now we're just on that late stage version of the game where no one is happy.

The game has also fostered a strong divide between casual/hardcore content. So if anything in normal mode gives you a bit of friction (STrayborough, M2N) people come here in tears asking why they don't toss that onto the hardcore pile, or wonder why no one is catering towards them specifically.

You accused me of arguing in bad faith and nitpicking so IDK if responding to you is productive, but this is my stance on the matter.

People don't understand this and its baffling. Like, look at the patch notes, its MOSTLY casual content.