Dear SE: Please listen to actual players, not just content creators

[PercibelTheren]

Average. I mean I do that, less time to manage EXs and the easier Savage Floors but I still consider myself an enjoyer of the more Casual stuff. I consider dipping into EX and Savage a bit further into the Hardcore end of things.

So...the "average" player does both casual and hardcore stuff. This is exactly what I would call a midcore player.

[Valence]

And what rewards are you specifically talking about? Gear with higher ilvl? Exclusive mounts?

As I mentioned before, your mindset doesn't make any sense because ff14 does provide alternative rewards when it comes to ilvl (which we can argue is the most needed, as mounts etc are basically cosmetic). People who aren't currently raiding can still get gears, either via tomestone or doing OC. Or if you want quicker catch up, go buy crafted gear from MB and upgrade them using tokens.

See, now while you aren't BiS, you can still tackle high end content as your ivl is sufficient.

Which mindset? I am not pushing for any of the two models of rewards. What are you talking about exactly? I'm sorry but what does any of this have to do with what you quoted?

[Guntank81]

I find it a bit disingenuous when people blame content creators for the changes we've seen, when in reality, much of this stems from player feedbackacross the official forums, Reddit, and social media in general. ya know it’s not solely the influence of content creators.

Take the Fork Tower changes as an example. The adjustments to the entrance were clearly driven by player feedback during Shb and EW. Players wanted something similar to Bozja, but with a stronger sense of MMO immersion. Yoshi-P and the dev team delivered on that and now we’re seeing backlash.

We’ve seen this pattern before. Back in Shadowbringers, a large portion of players voiced frustration with Bozja, especially around the relic grind and raid. In response to that player feedback, the devs pivoted to a more straightforward tomestone grind, paired with a funny haha storyline. Yet, that still didn’t land the way players expected.

People have consistently asked for a hybrid of Eureka and Bozja, and now that we’re finally seeing that implemented—again, based on player feedback—there’s renewed criticism.

In my opinion, it’s important for Square Enix to continue listening to player feedback, but with more discernment. Not all feedback necessarily improves the game, and I think we’ve seen examples of that play out multiple times.
What we need is more options to obtain items, like Relics, not just atma grind, light grind, tome grind, a mix of completing books, clearling a x amount of fates, world exploration etc. More options to obtain items is far better on a long term.

[Novarius]

As a connoisseur of hardcore content I must admit I have been well-catered for this expansion but I truly sympathise with the casual crowd and I do feel that a degree of balance is needed… the devs had two opportunities to improve relations with more casual players - Chaotic Alliance and Forked Tower and unfortunately I feel they have dropped the ball on both occasions…

Their unhealthy obsession with body checks and limited rezzes (even more punishing than BA and DRS) has kneecapped content that could have been a good middle ground and fostered a real spirit of co-operation between casual and hardcore players…

I know some streamers may have eluded to Light Heavyweight and FRU being too easy but I didn’t think this was a bad thing personally. Having the first Savage tier and Ultimate of an expansion being more beginner friendly helps with the on-boarding process and encourages those who were thinking about dipping their toes into Savage and Ultimate into taking the plunge… This way when the devs raise the stakes with a more challenging tier like Cruiserweight there is a more natural progression in difficulty.

I think going forwards having the difficulty for the high end being Savage Tier 1 < Savage Tier 2/Ultimate 1 < Savage Tier 3 < Ultimate 2 would be better for the health of the game in terms of gradually upping the ante. I think what the game currently lacks is more middle ground content to act as a capstone for some players but potentially a stepping stone for others, if they introduce more fights which present a fair challenge without an unhealthy amount of body checks or burdening one player with too much responsibility then that could be a major win all round…

[Raikai]

It's not that it's difficult to find one, it's just that they simply don't bother to even try.

The amount of time they spend frantically yo-yoing between two completely opposite ends of the spectrum, they could have very easily designed content that actually accomplishes that middle-ground

Was a shame that the in between - Variant / Criterion / Criterion Savage - wasn't tuned to be more accessible by random groups, or more like a midway term... Instead they just made 2 Savage like difficulties, with the only difference that one of them is less forgiving to mistakes.
Maybe you're all right: They just don't have the skills to craft content in the middle of the spectrum?... Except they do! Deep Dungeons are exactly that, more specifically Palace of The Dead.

There's a casual aspect to it, the beginner floors 1-50 with random groups
There's a step up from it, which is the kind of difficulty I think that stands in the middle and relevant to this thread, the journey through 50-100 with random groups. By floor 80 it becomes really challenging without being 'Savage-overbearing'
There's the next step, which I consider 'semi-hardcore' and it's completing the full 100-200 journey with a static party
And then there's the real ultimate challenge which is the soloing. And then after that, you can try soloing with harder jobs

All of that while offering healthy RNG aspects to keep the run less boring:
- Different floors and not knowing what you'll encounter
- Random treasure on different floor tiers that can be extremely valuable
- A break from the bloody 2-min meta, even on bosses, to some extent. You can even successfully use the aiming grazes in the Deep Dungeon!

As a bonus that adds up value to the content:
- A grind in aetherpool, both useful to make the runs better but also to buy cool weapons
- Possibility to play and level other jobs

[Alyx-Greywind]

So...the "average" player does both casual and hardcore stuff. This is exactly what I would call a midcore player.

Yeah but I don't really want stress all the time, I don't want every piece of content to be a raid either. I like non stress free content and content that has a bit of thought required... but Dawntrail has been constant releases of Stress! Stress! Stress! It's exhausting.

[Daralii]

This is a product of their own demise, and not the fault of content creators. When you water down all the jobs to pathetically simple and homogenized forms, the only satisfaction you can get out of the game (combat-wise) is through the encounters themselves. This huge imbalance puts a lot of pressure on the content to generate that satisfaction all by itself. What makes it even worse is new combat content comes out every 4 months or so, while classes get major reworks/updates only 1 per expac. Sorry not sorry Yoshi P. This is your fault

According to CBU3/CS3, the job changes have been to allow for them to more easily design high end(unsure of what their internal cutoff is for that definition) fights. Given the infamous "Go play ultimate" comment, I don't see a reason to doubt the honesty of that, they're just expanding it from healers to every role.

[Kozh]

Which mindset? I am not pushing for any of the two models of rewards. What are you talking about exactly? I'm sorry but what does any of this have to do with what you quoted?

Don't bother with it, just answer the question: what rewards do you exactly want to be not locked by Savage?

[Fawkes]

Don't bother with it, just answer the question: what rewards do you exactly want to be not locked by Savage?

Dyeable gear. That might actually make the gear in normal worth collecting.

[Alyx-Greywind]

Dyeable gear. That might actually make the gear in normal worth collecting.

Had a thought, why not just let the Normal Version have one Dye Channel and give the Savage Version the Second Dye Channel?