Difficult experience in Forked Tower – a reminder to respect public content

[SkankyRoe]

If it's possible to snipe then it's designed with the intention to be pugged, "snipers" are acting within their right to pug content as designed. But if it is too difficult to feasibly pug then it de facto requires organization, so the discord groups are also acting within their right to enter as a group and ignore any puggers that manage to get in with them. Neither side is in the wrong here, yall need to stop screaming at each other and start screaming at CBU3.

[OdinelStarrei]

You are a discord elitist. I just explained the why. And you insist on making up some sort of personal attack about me being 'big scared to enter voice chat'. The voice chat isn't even the crux of why discord is such a barrier for people, and even if it is, you can even do ultimates without voice chat. SE doesn't design content to require voice chat so people shouldn't be forced to use it by discord gatekeepers and elitists like you.

I want to touch on the voice chat topic (Not the rest directly, this is a bit too inflammatory for me)

Ultimate, at the time of the content introduction, was thought to be unpuggable. Something like UCOB is mainly an execution check, and the ease of entry (direct queue) meant that you did have people get reasonably far in the opening days. Once strategies started to become more normalized, it became feasible, but that came through years of community effort through guides, toolboxes, videos, and simulators. Shoutout to clees.

The reason why I fundamentally disagree with you saying that "ultimates are designed without voice chat" are because of the puzzle ultimates. Those are not execution checks, they are obscure, esoteric knowledge checks that you have to develop a plan for, with a consistent team over the course of days if you're doing it entirely blind, and even then, a conversation/live demonstration through screen share/collective studying is invaluable. You need to have a real dialogue to begin understanding the awakening system from UWU, the Enigma Codex from TEA, how to even access P5 in DSR, ANYTHING regarding Dynamis in TOP, etc etc. I don't think most people consider when Square Enix designs a puzzle in the encounter, it has to be at least implied to be discussed over voice over the course of hours/days, because that is also how it's tested, with a group of people talking during production and testing. Even UWU was designed from the ground up to be enjoyed with a live-audience where discussion out of the game was prominent. Just because a team of guide designers or crack raidplan composers made an easy step by step guide to pug an ultimate, doesn't mean that the content was originally planned out that way. The first pug clear of UCOB was a big deal! It was a community milestone even, it took months, but those people had resources to rely on.

Forked Tower is markedly different, as the content itself is fighting the players. The content does not want to be entered, and progressed, and completed in a manner that makes sense to it's participants. It's deliberately hostile, and that's the core difference. Anyone can enter a legacy ultimate. Entering FT in a way that makes a clear even possible is like, harder than the entire raid, which still, at the population required for clearing and the gear we have at this moment, isn't a walk in the park either.

It is literally against the target objective to be as hostile as you are painting it. Clearing content at the end of the day is the goal. I hate Discord, as an introvert, but I recognize it as a tool to be used. Nothing more.

The developers have actively shown either their incompetence or maliciousness. This is plain to see by anyone. That's who the ire should be pointed to, anything else is a waste of time, or designed to aggravate someone.

I wouldn't have Ozma, or Cerberus without those people in the Discords, the world prog for BA was the best experience I ever had in the game, despite it's massive problems. Some of those people are still my friends to this day. One of them bought me a sub so I would come back to Exploration, as I was really in love with Eureka. I don't really like seeing all these people hate on them for coming up with a solution for a problem Square Enix created. Yes, that makes me biased, but, isn't this a bit much guys?

It's awful.

[Mawlzy]

[snip]

A studio that designs content that explicitly requires voice in a game that does not include such a feature is grossly incompetent.

An alternative reading is that the devs do not actually do this at all, and that the use of vc is a convention imposed by a subset of the players.

[Volgia]

Few extroverts have the ability to view the world through an introvert lens.

If I were an extrovert I would probably not be posting on these forums, lol.

[OdinelStarrei]

A studio that designs content that explicitly requires voice in a game that does not include such a feature is grossly incompetent.

An alternative reading is that the devs do not actually do this at all, and that the use of vc is a convention imposed by a subset of the players.

Yes.
I've been saying this since Shadowbringers ended. I have a long treatise somewhere on the expansion of high-end fight complexity at the expense of individual responsibility being a problem, but that's not for this topic.

That makes way more sense than "the content designers and content testers do not talk to each other at all when testing content for release, if they are even different people in the first place."

People talk when they play video games together. The game requires strategy, and some things can only be accomplished by a team that is on the same page. It's easier to get to that point when you can speak your thoughts than type them, if you are not already following the same script/raidplan.

oop, here some of it is

But I will highlight that it's not "too many" people failing a mechanic leading to a wipe. It's one person doing something major, or sometimes minor incorrectly, and the result is the entire party exploding instantly. It's okay to have those things in fights. But when it's every fight, I feel that it starts breaking the trinity somewhat, outside of the more common issues detailed in this thread, because you didn't wipe because "the tank didn't get aggro" or "the dps check was failed" or "the healers were out of MP", you failed because Player 5 was out of position on mechanic sequence 4, or Player 2 didn't read their partner's debuff correctly and did 999999 damage to the group.

I feel that it promotes really frustrating and darwinistic perspectives for progressing through content.

When you then take that mentality and then you scale it up from 8 players to 48, and add in thrice come ruin, three death limits, and the most convoluted and tedious entry method the game has ever seen, it is no surprise that it's become...untenable, putting it lightly.

[tsuchii]

I'm divided on this.
On one hand, you did steal their pre-planned spot for that raid, leaving behind 2 people who were in that plan.
On the other, Square designed it this way, this you got in there "legitimately". Purposely trying to kill you and refusing you raise you is disruption of your play. You can report them tbh but that's a dick move considering first point.

All boils down to Square's SHIT design of this fight. TBH who asked for this?
Utter garbage.

I am an avid white knight of Square and 14 but Forked Tower and most of their recent updates are not defendable at all.

I root for Square and 14 to succeed as I am in love with this game but they have to be better. Always the goddamn shitty fights that are nearly impossible for the average player. No wonder most of my friends stopped playing already. It's so frustrating.

[PaulusHamsteru]

I'm divided on this.
On one hand, you did steal their pre-planned spot for that raid, leaving behind 2 people who were in that plan.
On the other, Square designed it this way, this you got in there "legitimately". Purposely trying to kill you and refusing you raise you is disruption of your play. You can report them tbh but that's a dick move considering first point.

All boils down to Square's SHIT design of this fight. TBH who asked for this?
Utter garbage.

I am an avid white knight of Square and 14 but Forked Tower and most of their recent updates are not defendable at all.

I root for Square and 14 to succeed as I am in love with this game but they have to be better. Always the goddamn shitty fights that are nearly impossible for the average player. No wonder most of my friends stopped playing already. It's so frustrating.

Tbf, you're part of the problem. People need to stop white knighting for them, otherwise they'll think what they're doing is great.

[DynnDiablos]

To belatedly answer your question: the second fight in particular is that tight.



If anyone is too late on fireballs, they may, while getting there late, be the "closest" of their role, getting the cone. There is a high chance that they will cleave the entire other side of the area, immediately causing a wipe. DPS have also stood on healer side before, equally causing a crazy amount of casualties. And you know what? I agree that tankbustering them on purpose sucks, but I also can understand why you'd feel the urge lol.

Just seeing this makes my brain bleed. Like...if I have to memorize this shit to do a fight - no thanks.

[Volgia]

I wouldn't have Ozma, or Cerberus without those people in the Discords, the world prog for BA was the best experience I ever had in the game, despite it's massive problems. Some of those people are still my friends to this day. One of them bought me a sub so I would come back to Exploration, as I was really in love with Eureka. I don't really like seeing all these people hate on them for coming up with a solution for a problem Square Enix created. Yes, that makes me biased, but, isn't this a bit much guys?

It's awful.

To me it's weird because while I agree that Square created a problem where some toxicity might arise, it's also that clunky weird way of designing this content that built a community around Eureka and BA, and it's where I met a lot of people I am currently friends with. It's why I say it was probably intentional, and why I can't decide if it's terrible design, despite people calling me a discord elitist narcissist and being hostile towards me.

[Daralii]

Tbf, you're part of the problem. People need to stop white knighting for them, otherwise they'll think what they're doing is great.

They think what they're doing is great regardless. See: their response to the negative Island Sanctuary feedback.