OC is a soulless cash grab designed for sub retention and is not fun

[Granyala]

tomes as a system are inherently uninteresting, it’s basically buying a relic weapon with Gil. It doesn’t make thematic sense nor does it “feel” fulfilling. You can argue I’m putting way too much stock on feeling

Yeah, you totally do. The Atma grind feels no different to me than a tome grind would, except with more frustration attached due to the dogshit RNG element, so I do not see any sort of progress for hours.

3hrs of CE's yesterday, got 2 drops right at the start then 3 hours of nothing.

BOTH systems end up in being a simple transaction of "gimme items, get fancy stick".

Guaranteed Atma shards from all sorts of content would be better, yes. But ultimately, apart from how the item looks it would be no different.

Frankly put: Rowena with her vast network of experts in materials, ancient civilizations, collectibles, rare treasures etc being the source of raw materials, instead of us managing everything ourselves is actually a lot more believable. We are just the WOL. We are not experts in many fields and we are ultimately just one person that can't just scour the entire frikkin planet for some ultra rare goodies.

You know, I've always wondered why they didn't involve crafting in the relics

They did in the past and it SUCKED. It basically meant that most players had to do a gil grind to pay outrageous prices to the few crafters willing to deal with the annoying to create items.

I still remember putting my relics on hold for several patches because I refused to pay these prices (and my omnicrafting wasn't quite there yet).
I guess it would work better today, now that crafting is less annoying to deal with (and that my crafters are capable of creating the items no problemo) but AFAIK most players would still face a simple gil-grind, as being an omnicrafter is too hardcore for the average player.

[Supersnow845]

Yeah, you totally do. The Atma grind feels no different to me than a tome grind would, except with more frustration attached due to the dogshit RNG element, so I do not see any sort of progress for hours.

3hrs of CE's yesterday, got 2 drops right at the start then 3 hours of nothing.

BOTH systems end up in being a simple transaction of "gimme items, get fancy stick".

Guaranteed Atma shards from all sorts of content would be better, yes. But ultimately, apart from how the item looks it would be no different.

Frankly put: Rowena with her vast network of experts in materials, ancient civilizations, collectibles, rare treasures etc being the source of raw materials, instead of us managing everything ourselves is actually a lot more believable. We are just the WOL. We are not experts in many fields and we are ultimately just one person that can't just scour the entire frikkin planet for some ultra rare goodies.

They did in the past and it SUCKED. It basically meant that most players had to do a gil grind to pay outrageous prices to the few crafters willing to deal with the annoying to create items.

I still remember putting my relics on hold for several patches because I refused to pay these prices (and my omnicrafting wasn't quite there yet).
I guess it would work better today, now that crafting is less annoying to deal with (and that my crafters are capable of creating the items no problemo) but AFAIK most players would still face a simple gil-grind, as being an omnicrafter is too hardcore for the average player.

Well you can say I totally put too much stock in feeling of the content but that doesn’t necessarily make your thought on the matter any more valuable or “correct” than mine

You are welcome to think that both options are awful and I don’t necessarily disagree but regardless it doesn’t change my stance that collecting some kind of actual item rather than “Rowena collects it for us and charges us tomes” is better which is why I’d still prefer each new relic needing one atma of each type over tomestones

[Granyala]

Well you can say I totally put too much stock in feeling of the content but that doesn’t necessarily make your thought on the matter any more valuable or “correct” than mine

Sooo... if we're talking about lore, lets have some fun:
How would Andreas Cestelle handle the following situation:

He needs item X. Item X is extremely rare, only a handful of them have ever been found and they sit in the collections of extremely rich and powerful NPCs, Andreas doesn't even know exist. Andreas also doesn't know that these individuals would be willing to part with said items for the right price.

Even if Andreas gets the names of these individuals, they hardly have any interest in interacting with what they see as a "normal person" (not everyone on this planet will care about the WOL, especially not uber rich folks that live in their own little world).

So basically, Andreas is stuck.

Enter Rowena: she has a vast network, knows of these individuals and has contacts that have contacts in good standing. She offers to be the broker, for a modest ... or not so modest (poor Gerolt), fee.

How is that any less believable, from a lore PoV, than "eh just smack random mobs until you drop the item", especially if said mobs have nothing to do with the relic at all?

I mean Living memory is an artificial zone constructed from beings from another world. Why the hell would Demiatmas even drop there?

[Supersnow845]

Sooo... if we're talking about lore, lets have some fun:
How would Andreas Cestelle handle the following situation:

He needs item X. Item X is extremely rare, only a handful of them have ever been found and they sit in the collections of extremely rich and powerful NPCs, Andreas doesn't even know exist. Andreas also doesn't know that these individuals would be willing to part with said items for the right price.

Even if Andreas gets the names of these individuals, they hardly have any interest in interacting with what they see as a "normal person" (not everyone on this planet will care about the WOL, especially not uber rich folks that live in their own little world).

So basically, Andreas is stuck.

Enter Rowena: she has a vast network, knows of these individuals and has contacts that have contacts in good standing. She offers to be the broker, for a modest ... or not so modest (poor Gerolt), fee.

How is that any less believable, from a lore PoV, than "eh just smack random mobs until you drop the item", especially if said mobs have nothing to do with the relic at all?

I mean Living memory is an artificial zone constructed from beings from another world. Why the hell would Demiatmas even drop there?

I’m not saying Rowena being a merchant king is unrealistic I’m saying the concept of making a relic by doing the in game equivalent of buying it from the market is not remotely interesting compared to actually collecting it yourself or making it yourself. The parameters you set up in this hypothetical imply that the only way a relic can be made is using materials that are out of reach for the WOL whether due to them being locked away in rich people’s vaults or the WOL simply having no intel on where they are; not particularly unrealistic but also not the only option for collecting powerful relic materials based on how you write it. Remember the original atma’s are crystallised memories of great battle which makes the WOL basically the only one who can collect them

But as for your example if you apply my headcanon to that lore Andreas is a mercantile power himself due to his glassblowing skills so it’s funny you mentioned that particular scenario as that does exactly pertain to him in my headcanons strengths

[Granyala]

I’m saying the concept of making a relic by doing the in game equivalent of buying it from the market is not remotely interesting compared to actually collecting it yourself or making it yourself.

And I am saying that making everything yourself while disregarding that there is an entire planet of people that can help the WoL is equally uninteresting.

I think we can agree that a believable relic needs a bit of both. Which would open the door to alternate progression paths.