SE isn't hearing the community RE: Job Feedback & Simplification

[AllenThyl]

People saying “this is the only way it can be” just make me think that most people are arguing from the position of their entire raiding experience starting in ShB.

No, the argument was that it's "all just same old stack or spread". And that is a degree of abstraction, that removes every possible flavor from fight design. And it's hypocritical that this kind of abstraction is only ever done somehow for fight design, but somehow the old job kits were magically "complex" and totally not reducible to "press the right button at the right time". That's like saying "every story is just some characters doing something", invalidating with a single stroke all the stories that could ever be told. It's destructive nihilism, and for the developers, there is nothing of value that can be extracted from such feedback, ever. It's just melancholy for melancholy's sake. And that's how many of the posts of the "veterans who were there" that are "discussing" class and fight changes come off, a bunch of bitter people marinating in their own Weltschmerz, because things "ain't how they used to be".

We have roles for a reason. Because they are supposed to do different things. The role separation is not just to decide who gets what position it is also there to actually divide up implied responsibility for mechanics. This is why people like 6’s add phase despite how unbalanced targeted cleave is currently, because different roles are actually doing different things

See how you didn't even engage with the actual argument that was being made, that every boss fight is "just stack or spread with different coats of paint", and that this is somehow bad? Here is the thing, I give you all your mythical job design and complex rotation and whathaveyou for your vision, will the game or will it not require players to move at certain times to certain spots in the fight? Will or will it not result in there being a "correct" button for every class to push in every single situation?

There is so much design space with raid encounters and 14 just doesn’t do anything with it. Instead every fight is a mechanical dance that treats every role the same. Why is in 99% or mechanics the only difference between a caster and a melee whether they do the same dance 2 yalms away from the boss or 15 yalms

There is no design space left if we follow Valence's logic, because movement while simultaneously pressing action buttons is the core activity of this game's combat system. If players engaging in that very activity is evaluated negatively, then there is absolutely nothing that can be done for this game except to turn it into a completely different kind of game. Which are out there, those other games, with the other kind of gameplay. Thousands of them. At some point, you gotta take some personal responsibility for your own consumer choices.

[Supersnow845]

snip

You are taking valence’s point so hilariously literally to the point you have actually completely missed their point. They aren’t saying “the fact that you move is bad game design” they are saying “the fact that in the modern game the only way that mechanics resolve themselves is move here->something resolves->move here->something else resolves” is tired and limiting to encounter and job design because it removes every other facet of potential encounter design (the “everything is just stack and spread” is proxy for mechanics being solved by them just exploding around the player as the player moves in a calculated dance)

This is why M6S’s add phase is being so highly praised; because the resolution of it doesn’t just involve moving around in a calculated way while the mechanics go off around you. It forces you to move the mechanics around you

If you take valence’s point as simply “the fact you have to move is bad” then yeah sure their point seems strange, but that’s because that’s not their point