Melee's help me out

[Aco505]

Would machinist and black mage having comparable dps to selfish melees (sam, vpr) ruin the game?

BLM should compete with melee damage-wise. As a non-buffer, it should be balanced around this fact.

MCH dealing competitive damage to melee/BLM/PCT would not be an issue for melee specifically but for the viability of DNC and BRD. This discussion already happened in Abyssos and the conclusion is that either SE gives a raid buff to MCH or they rework the way the combat system and damage profiles work.

[Reginald_Cain]

MCH dealing competitive damage to melee/BLM/PCT would not be an issue for melee specifically but for the viability of DNC and BRD. This discussion already happened in Abyssos and the conclusion is that either SE gives a raid buff to MCH or they rework the way the combat system and damage profiles work.

Could you explain why machinist would bully out the other phys ranged? I thought buffing machinist would make them a viable pick for the 4th dps slot and make double phys ranged viable again.

[Supersnow845]

Could you explain why machinist would bully out the other phys ranged? I thought buffing machinist would make them a viable pick for the 4th dps slot and make double phys ranged viable again.

Because this is what happened in abyssos with the casters, if you make one job within a role much stronger than the other 2 it doesn’t encourage you to run the strong one as a fake melee and the 2 weak ones in the true spot it just encourages you to run the strong one in the true role spot and still run two melee

So in this case if you buffed MCH to BLM levels it wouldn’t encourage you to run 1 melee/1 caster/1 DNC or BRD/1 other strong job (melee/BLM/PCT/MCH) it would just encourage you to run 2 melee or damage caster/1 caster/MCH and not run DNC and BRD as MCH can still give you the physical ranged role 1% with higher damage; just as BLM did in abyssos against RDM and SMN

[Aco505]

Could you explain why machinist would bully out the other phys ranged? I thought buffing machinist would make them a viable pick for the 4th dps slot and make double phys ranged viable again.

Think of the PCT situation before 7.2 due to (poor) caster balance. PCT was mostly locked into the caster slot so the flex slot would either go to a melee or a (rezz) caster. Even more so in FRU.

But it's all explained in the post I link in my message, as well as the Twitter thread referenced there.

[Wayfinder3]

BLM should compete with melee damage-wise. As a non-buffer, it should be balanced around this fact.

MCH dealing competitive damage to melee/BLM/PCT would not be an issue for melee specifically but for the viability of DNC and BRD. This discussion already happened in Abyssos and the conclusion is that either SE gives a raid buff to MCH or they rework the way the combat system and damage profiles work.

Just going to point out, buffing and not buffing are just 2 different types of damage profiles, a job like ninja has it's damage out put into it's raid buff as opposed to something like samurai that doesn't. This is all to say that damage utility really doesn't matter, they're 2 different ways of doing the same thing ultimately and people will always apply the best one to a given fight. BLM is screwed not because it doesn't have a raid buff but because it doesn't offer any ACTUAL utility, stuff like Star Prism, Tempura Coat, Magicked Barrier, Raise etc... These are Real raid utility. If SE wanted to, they could cut back BLM's potency and give them a raid buff to compensate and the job would be in the same exact position because that utility isn't really utility. Se bard and dancer for an example or Red Mage and summoner who's damage profiles are so close that they're functionally interchangable at all levels but offer different types of actual utility that may actually influence their contribution. DNC burst heavy contribution, Verraise vs. Swfitcast raise, Bards Team wide contribution, SMNs... Ease of use? idk, smn really doesn't have anything too special.

[Aco505]

Just going to point out, buffing and not buffing are just 2 different types of damage profiles, a job like ninja has it's damage out put into it's raid buff as opposed to something like samurai that doesn't. This is all to say that damage utility really doesn't matter, they're 2 different ways of doing the same thing ultimately and people will always apply the best one to a given fight.

This is correct. The reason why I say that BLM should be balanced as "selfish" is because non-buffers should not have higher rDPS values than buffers, as otherwise they'd be overpowered (e.g. ShB SAM or BLM in the second half of EW). They can still have similar or higher aDPS/cDPS values, if they happen to be there at a specific balance point.

"Selfish" jobs are already superior to buffers in most content, from dungeons to hard 8-ppl duties because their personal performance is irrelevant from the group's or its size. They should still play into buffs but they won't be affected by others dying or playing poorly compared to buffers with the sole exception of kill time (which they can still benefit from even if the group is not good).

You can also see this in CODCAR due to the size of the arena making buffing complicated or even in normal Alliance raids where the "selfish" jobs are the ones making the most out of the buffs given to them, particularly since you can buff stack there due to the funny website not organizing the Alliance raid data into their usual metrics but just raw DPS.

BLM is screwed not because it doesn't have a raid buff but because it doesn't offer any ACTUAL utility, stuff like Star Prism, Tempura Coat, Magicked Barrier, Raise etc...

With the exception of resurrection, jobs are not balanced around their utility. VPR has none (unless we consider Uncoiled Fury to be "utility") whereas MNK has a defensive with an AoE heal attached and a unique ability in Mantra yet both are balanced around the melee/non-rezz caster group. It is also not surprising that the infamous non-healer Ultimate clears tend to bring those DPS jobs with additional healing tools like DNC or RPR.

BLM has a defensive, and they could give it another utility tool if they wanted to without it requiring to reduce its damage.

The "issue" of BLM is that it is (was?) a job that does not fit into the standardized 2-minute bursts as well as others do. Its damage profile is continuous instead of bursty. This would be fine if the amount of buffs or their power was lower, but their strong synergy combined with their multiplicative nature makes most other jobs more suitable at exploiting them. This damage profile also hurts them in encounters with a lot of downtime but can make them good at particular moments where other jobs don't have a lot of burst but still require damage, as is the case in one phase in TOP. It is no surprise then that the developers have kept changing the job, to the dismay of plenty of BLM lovers.