Melee's help me out

[Wayfinder3]

BLM should compete with melee damage-wise. As a non-buffer, it should be balanced around this fact.

MCH dealing competitive damage to melee/BLM/PCT would not be an issue for melee specifically but for the viability of DNC and BRD. This discussion already happened in Abyssos and the conclusion is that either SE gives a raid buff to MCH or they rework the way the combat system and damage profiles work.

Just going to point out, buffing and not buffing are just 2 different types of damage profiles, a job like ninja has it's damage out put into it's raid buff as opposed to something like samurai that doesn't. This is all to say that damage utility really doesn't matter, they're 2 different ways of doing the same thing ultimately and people will always apply the best one to a given fight. BLM is screwed not because it doesn't have a raid buff but because it doesn't offer any ACTUAL utility, stuff like Star Prism, Tempura Coat, Magicked Barrier, Raise etc... These are Real raid utility. If SE wanted to, they could cut back BLM's potency and give them a raid buff to compensate and the job would be in the same exact position because that utility isn't really utility. Se bard and dancer for an example or Red Mage and summoner who's damage profiles are so close that they're functionally interchangable at all levels but offer different types of actual utility that may actually influence their contribution. DNC burst heavy contribution, Verraise vs. Swfitcast raise, Bards Team wide contribution, SMNs... Ease of use? idk, smn really doesn't have anything too special.

[Aco505]

Just going to point out, buffing and not buffing are just 2 different types of damage profiles, a job like ninja has it's damage out put into it's raid buff as opposed to something like samurai that doesn't. This is all to say that damage utility really doesn't matter, they're 2 different ways of doing the same thing ultimately and people will always apply the best one to a given fight.

This is correct. The reason why I say that BLM should be balanced as "selfish" is because non-buffers should not have higher rDPS values than buffers, as otherwise they'd be overpowered (e.g. ShB SAM or BLM in the second half of EW). They can still have similar or higher aDPS/cDPS values, if they happen to be there at a specific balance point.

"Selfish" jobs are already superior to buffers in most content, from dungeons to hard 8-ppl duties because their personal performance is irrelevant from the group's or its size. They should still play into buffs but they won't be affected by others dying or playing poorly compared to buffers with the sole exception of kill time (which they can still benefit from even if the group is not good).

You can also see this in CODCAR due to the size of the arena making buffing complicated or even in normal Alliance raids where the "selfish" jobs are the ones making the most out of the buffs given to them, particularly since you can buff stack there due to the funny website not organizing the Alliance raid data into their usual metrics but just raw DPS.

BLM is screwed not because it doesn't have a raid buff but because it doesn't offer any ACTUAL utility, stuff like Star Prism, Tempura Coat, Magicked Barrier, Raise etc...

With the exception of resurrection, jobs are not balanced around their utility. VPR has none (unless we consider Uncoiled Fury to be "utility") whereas MNK has a defensive with an AoE heal attached and a unique ability in Mantra yet both are balanced around the melee/non-rezz caster group. It is also not surprising that the infamous non-healer Ultimate clears tend to bring those DPS jobs with additional healing tools like DNC or RPR.

BLM has a defensive, and they could give it another utility tool if they wanted to without it requiring to reduce its damage.

The "issue" of BLM is that it is (was?) a job that does not fit into the standardized 2-minute bursts as well as others do. Its damage profile is continuous instead of bursty. This would be fine if the amount of buffs or their power was lower, but their strong synergy combined with their multiplicative nature makes most other jobs more suitable at exploiting them. This damage profile also hurts them in encounters with a lot of downtime but can make them good at particular moments where other jobs don't have a lot of burst but still require damage, as is the case in one phase in TOP. It is no surprise then that the developers have kept changing the job, to the dismay of plenty of BLM lovers.

[Rithy255]

Here's to sum up why ranged is picked

"The 1% passive buff, for bringing 1 phys ranged"

This is why 2 phys ranged is a pretty bad idea because of how little damage phys ranged do/contribute, while double melee and double caster are usually more good, because even a red mage is better over a second physical ranged and that job brings a rez...

[ThurinTurambar]

I feel like they think magic dps and melees both have inherent things that make them harder (melee uptime and positionals, casters having harder movement - according to devs that would be ofc) and rphys technicly dont have those (despite how hard bard is or how strict optimal mch is).
So what if they added some mechanic that would enforce something on the rphys role making it more 'skillful' and give justification for more damage?
I was thinking something like close/far positionals. I would enjoy figuring out when is good time to use a 'sniper shot' type skills so to be back in healer's range when you need it and being able to use point blank skills when its not messing up melees.

Currently i enjoy a sort of similar mental gimnastics on reaper, basicly figuring out where i can cut down on harpe usage by using my communio and perfectio as uptime tools.

[Valence]

More demanding toolkits and rng/proc triage.
But obviously the only metric for SE is DDR design, so I'm just living in the past.

[Azurarok]

More demanding toolkits and rng/proc triage.
But obviously the only metric for SE is DDR design, so I'm just living in the past.

I hate how much both the devs and the community tend to downplay rotational difficulties when they're not mobility restrictions.

[Azurarok]

Not to say that MCH couldn't use something more to be able to reach higher. It's just that people tend to jump to stuff like cast times, range, positionals and the like before anything else since those are the most obvious.

There's also having a wider array of skills and the depth of their interactions, high apm, rng/procs, gauge management, buff/debuff tracking, and probably others I'm forgetting. Depending on who you ask some may see some of those as bloat or fake difficulty, but I think that's really just a matter of taste.

MCH currently only really has high apm and even that's not too busy compared to some others. Meanwhile its gauge management's been further trivialized by its 7.0 changes so it's even easier than it was in EW imo.

[Valence]

I mean you'd slap a few cast times behind Drill/Anchor and Chainsaw, and suddenly in the eyes of many you'd have the job qualify to be competitive on damage because the job would suddenly qualify for "uptime considerations".

[Azurarok]

I mean you'd slap a few cast times behind Drill/Anchor and Chainsaw, and suddenly in the eyes of many you'd have the job qualify to be competitive on damage because the job would suddenly qualify for "uptime considerations".

imo that'd be pretty diabolical given Anchor and Chainsaw's lack of flexibility. Maybe even impossible to keep from drifting without any way to turn them into an instant cast

[Reginald_Cain]

I appreciate all the insights. I guess the best machinist can hope for is minor buffs due to constraints on how the game and players handle filling party slots. Let's hope it just doesn't get worse.