Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

[SchwarzwaelderTorte]

I loved my 7.0 face and 7.1 ruined it, 7.2 has a very real possibility to make that worse and neither looked anything remotely like 6.X or before, so like... just start work on a character creator that allows people to pick and choose multiple variants of each face instead, please.

Hopefully, however, this does mean that Auri limbals will no longer be high beams like they are in 7.1... the ambient lighting adaptation of them in 7.0 was honestly really cool.

I've had the opposite experience with Auri limbal rings, I've been fighting real hard since the first benchmark (almost a year already...) to get my limbal rings back, which were pretty much gone in both benchmarks and 7.0 (except at night), and made a bit of a comeback since 7.1 (even if they're not exactly like before yet, and the dilated pupils are not helping). I'm not saying this to shut down your opinion, just to share that from my perspective, with the character creation choices I made, things have slightly improved. This has also been the case for some Au ra NPCs like Sadu and Allie, who in 7.0 looked very different from how they used to in 6.X.

However, it's far from perfect, and the 7.1 adjustments are much more sensitive to the environment lighting than before, which exacerbates the "high beam" effect you're talking about. That has also affected the appearance of Cirina and Yugiri, whose limbal rings have drastically changed colors after 7.1.
I wrote a very long debug post on the Japanese thread about how the color and thickness of limbal rings are strongly affected by the lighting (particularly the green and red values, and I'm pretty sure the game's lighting is a lot more yellow than it used to be...), in case you're curious to learn more about why that "high beam" effect is happening.

I hope a middle ground can be found, because I do agree that some color combinations looked better in 7.0, but others sadly didn't, and same in 7.1. I still think that the method of rendering/displaying the limbal ring is what is at fault, and I still struggle to understand why they decided to change it from how it worked in 6.X (like, I think the same gradient transition and glow-in-the-dark effect could be achieved, at the cost of maybe making the ring not perfectly round, but still with more polygons than in 6.X... but I don't know what their technical constraints are, so).

Hopefully we both get what we want in 7.2, but yeah I'm as anxious as you about the changes, even if we disagree on what was better lol

[DynnDiablos]

I still believe what we are going to witness is death by a 1,000 cuts. as they continue to tweak, tweak and tweak but it just makes everything worse. You've got people who loved their characters in 7.0 that were pissed by 7.1 changes, now folks have reworked their characters in 7.1 and there is the high possibility they will have to redo them again in 7.2. I mean is it legit never going to end? Is the plan to keep messing with everything indefinitely where every patch and expansion we need a fantasia and hope and pray they didn't change something that will throw our entire character off?

[Aniya_Estlihn]

I've had the opposite experience with Auri limbal rings, I've been fighting real hard since the first benchmark (almost a year already...) to get my limbal rings back, which were pretty much gone in both benchmarks and 7.0 (except at night), and made a bit of a comeback since 7.1 (even if they're not exactly like before yet, and the dilated pupils are not helping). I'm not saying this to shut down your opinion, just to share that from my perspective, with the character creation choices I made, things have slightly improved. This has also been the case for some Au ra NPCs like Sadu and Allie, who in 7.0 looked very different from how they used to in 6.X.

However, it's far from perfect, and the 7.1 adjustments are much more sensitive to the environment lighting than before, which exacerbates the "high beam" effect you're talking about. That has also affected the appearance of Cirina and Yugiri, whose limbal rings have drastically changed colors after 7.1.
I wrote a very long debug post on the Japanese thread about how the color and thickness of limbal rings are strongly affected by the lighting (particularly the green and red values, and I'm pretty sure the game's lighting is a lot more yellow than it used to be...), in case you're curious to learn more about why that "high beam" effect is happening.

I hope a middle ground can be found, because I do agree that some color combinations looked better in 7.0, but others sadly didn't, and same in 7.1. I still think that the method of rendering/displaying the limbal ring is what is at fault, and I still struggle to understand why they decided to change it from how it worked in 6.X (like, I think the same gradient transition and glow-in-the-dark effect could be achieved, at the cost of maybe making the ring not perfectly round, but still with more polygons than in 6.X... but I don't know what their technical constraints are, so).

Hopefully we both get what we want in 7.2, but yeah I'm as anxious as you about the changes, even if we disagree on what was better lol

Oh my only issue with them is that they are a bit too bright in all settings; at night its egregiously bright, and how utterly thick they are around the iris compared to both 7.0 and 6.X, so in that regard we're kind of in the same boat. They are much thicker than they used to be both pre and post overhaul and it took me two months to get used to the change in 7.1... so I am dreading what they might do. I don't feel like you're shutting me down, differences in opinion exist and should be recognized.

I do, however, greatly miss how my face looked in 7.0. I know it wasn't the intended shape or look, but I quickly grew attached to it as I went into Dawntrail with an open mind that things would visually be different and I grew to quite love what they had done. Others don't and that's fine too... I really, really, really just want them look at their workflow, realize how futile doing a graphical update to characters every patch is and go into more detail about the character creation overhaul they spoke of in one of the previous lodestone topics on the situation.

As the biggest concern, as DynnDiablos above put it, is that we're about to witness death by a thousand cuts and in the end absolutely no one will be happy.
They've always struggled with proper prioritization and I think this should serve as a wake up call that the character creation system is too limited to satisfy all their players.

Limitations are fine, all well and good, but when you start to tweak the characters like they have in both benchmarks, 7.0, 7.1, and 7.2 they're showing people glimpses of what could be and potentially giving them things they like better, which is only going to lead to more compounding resentment, frustration, and dissatisfaction.

But I digress, back on our discussion, the limbal rings used to be a model that they super imposed on top of the eye, it then had a lighting effect applied to it; as each color was actually a color and a light value.
That system has been depreciated and replaced with a fully lighting and shader dependent replacement that I doubt they are wont to change or revert. So I don't see what they could do without tossing away however much they invested into the new system.

Also as a general statement: would it kill them to make another lodestone topic detailing the changes to character models? Just saying its happening and not having an itemized summary of everything is so inconsiderate to us when many people treat their character as their in game identity. I used to be pretty averse to any of the changes people were suggesting here, and while I am more open to others complaints... I still am averse to the idea of us enduring multiple iterations throughout 7.X; seriously they got it wrong three times... potentially four now... set it aside and find a better solution and communicate those plans clearly, but we need some clear open communication about their plans and what they are actually doing.

[ConantSivrha]

I really don't want them to change anything for male miqo'te face 1 besides improving the textures on the face as well as face paint.

Mouth #4.

Hopefully, however, this does mean that Auri limbals will no longer be high beams like they are in 7.1...

I've had the opposite experience with Auri limbal rings, I've been fighting real hard since the first benchmark (almost a year already...) to get my limbal rings back, which were pretty much gone in both benchmarks and 7.0 (except at night), and made a bit of a comeback since 7.1 (even if they're not exactly like before yet, and the dilated pupils are not helping).

What we really need is an au ra beam brightness slider. It can't be that hard. Sliders seem like a fairly obvious and easy improvement for a lot of things, like lip color, face paint, and hair highlight opacity, but for some reason we don't have them.

[Aco505]

Mouth #4.

It's true that they changed the shape of the mouths and particularly #4. It's the one I've always used and I'm personally happy with what we have now. In order to bring back a shape similar to the older one, what they should do is introduce it as a fifth option instead of outright removing what's currently there. This is one of my issues with the changes: they replace but never add extra choice.

[Aniya_Estlihn]

What we really need is an au ra beam brightness slider. It can't be that hard. Sliders seem like a fairly obvious and easy improvement for a lot of things, like lip color, face paint, and hair highlight opacity, but for some reason we don't have them.

My one copium desire for the aforementioned character creator overhaul mentioned in past graphical update lodestone posts is for a metric ton of sliders for darn near everything, and near full RGB control rather than the weirdly limiting swatches that they've arbitrarily assigned to every race and gender based upon some nonsense restriction that they've pointlessly imposed. A pipe-dream, perhaps; almost definitely, but one can dream of a better world all the same.

[SchwarzwaelderTorte]

But I digress, back on our discussion, the limbal rings used to be a model that they super imposed on top of the eye, it then had a lighting effect applied to it; as each color was actually a color and a light value.
That system has been depreciated and replaced with a fully lighting and shader dependent replacement that I doubt they are wont to change or revert. So I don't see what they could do without tossing away however much they invested into the new system.

Yup. I still think they should toss it and rework it from scratch lol (it's one of the realities of gamedev after all)

My one copium desire for the aforementioned character creator overhaul mentioned in past graphical update lodestone posts is for a metric ton of sliders for darn near everything, and near full RGB control rather than the weirdly limiting swatches that they've arbitrarily assigned to every race and gender based upon some nonsense restriction that they've pointlessly imposed. A pipe-dream, perhaps; almost definitely, but one can dream of a better world all the same.

Absolutely, same with changes to facial parts as you said in your previous post, it's something we've been pushing for on the Japanese thread since the very beginning but yeah, all we have is that one Lodestone post from last September saying "maybe... in the future... a more expanded character creator..... who knows". Are we talking 2 years? 5? 10? Is the game still going to be around in 10 years at this rate?

Granted, for facial parts there might be a bit of an issue in terms of memory because it might require extra 3D models or rig systems, but the color palettes? Are hex codes really eating up that much memory that they need to limit it...? (And why can NPCs have custom hair colors in that case?)
It's all stuff I've said on the JP forums before, but it's still baffling that they thought "our game is 10 years old, let's rework the graphics and unify character models to improve our workflow, surely not enough people will notice the difference or care enough to make too big of a fuss" (in an MMO? with a huge focus on the player character??) and NOT think about updating the character creator at the same time (which was already very limited compared to some older Korean MMOs). Even PSO2 has implemented old character models in their character creator because they knew it was important to the players.
Like, it's really the same situation as 1.0 where they forgot what kind of game they were working on and what their competitors are doing...

[Ysmia]

Hello, I'm a player from the Korean server.
I started on the global server last week to post on the forum (it might be late, though).
Since Dawntrail, the face of the character I’ve used for 7 years has changed.



1. The upper lip became thinner.
2. Due to factor #1, the philtrum has become longer.
3. The upper eyelids became thicker, which changed the eye shape and the amount of exposed iris.
4. She’s got wrinkles under her eyes.
5. The line connecting the chin and ears has become slimmer.

Before, my character had a goofy, laid-back, and sturdy look. Now, she looks more brooding, sensitive, and exhausted.

At first, I thought I could adjust, but over time, I found myself logging in less and less.
As I progressed through the story, my disconnect with my character only grew, and I ended up quitting just before the level 93 trial.
Since Femroe Type 1 face players are already a small community, I'm worried about 7.2.

This is sincerely heartbreaking to see.
While several players have one major flaw that changes the characteristic of their WoL, this model has several. The eyes, the ears, the mouth, the nose, even the brows are different. Subtle differences in size and volume made massive changes on recognizing this model, and if it weren't for the colors I would have guessed that this model had different facial feature options placed.
I am sorry for your Warrior of Light Baobabkr, and I pray that 7.2 can bring your Femrou back.

[Iscah]

Aside of the direct mention of character adjustments in the patch notes, the item in the housing section about an option to turn off additional shadows feels like it's relevant to the character appearances too:

The way that wall corner looks in the "before" picture with the extra shadowing looks like the exact same issue going on with character hairstyles and I think a lot of the faces as well.

I feel like being able to turn it off for characters would likely make a difference on a lot of the issues with the characters looking more harsh and haggard.

Unfortunately the "this effect will be visible to everyone who enters the room" note doesn't give me much hope that it could be added as an option just for those who want it.

[baobabkr]

This is a devastating change. That lip shape change is by far one of the worst I've seen.

I've said this before to no avail, but I'll say it again: please look at and adjust all faces equally. I stopped commenting here because I'm tired and I could tell from 7.1 they weren't listening, but the fact they're only attempting their lame adjustments on a specific select few faces is evident.

In 7.1 the only faces with any additional adjustments (meaning they had adjustments beyond the blanketed philtrum change) were several of the most popular ones, and even then they were far from hitting the mark.

Roegadyn and Highlander women in particular are still riddled with errors in their face mapping, and the second ♀ Highlander face still has an entirely new set of eyes, making some old customization options impossible to achieve. Only one ♂ Duskwight face had its eyebag issue fixed. ♀ Au Ra Face 2 remains unrecognizable. ♂ Au Ra Face 3 lost all of its boyishness. ♂ Midlander Face 4 is so busted that it can look like an entirely different face depending on the time of day. ♂ Miqo'te faces had all of their mouths replaced with ones of similar widths and curves, lessening their individual characteristics tenfold. The list goes on.

I have zero hope my ♀ Roegadyn with Face 4 will get fixed because she too uses a very unpopular face. This is the second KR user coming here with ♀ Roegadyn Face 1, and it's clearly been hit drastically. There is no objectively singular "worst" face option update here.

So please, look at all faces equally. There are so many players with loads of different customization options that love this game and would like to continue loving it. Put in the goddamn effort; players shouldn't have to point out what got drastically changed for SE anyway.

I agree. I think categorizing feedback by applying changes to frequently mentioned concerns while overlooking those that were rarely brought up (Of course, since there are fewer players.) is actually a more complicated approach.
Plus, even the applied changes are often unsatisfactory.
I think that bringing back the 6.X version of the faces and keeping some of the new changes as additional customization options could allow both those who like the new look and those who prefer the old one to be satisfied.