They are gutting Black Mage even more in 7.2

[Auro_Seldaris]

I'd argue that Jank isn't 'complexity', and agree with what someone else here said about the difference between 'funk', which gives a job identity, and 'jank', which harms the identity of the job. Black Mage having awkward cast times doesn't 'define' the job, it makes it unpleasant to play. Current Tillana doesn't give Dancer 'complexity', it ruins a core aspect of gauge management by punishing the player for things outside of their control.

I'm sorry it makes it "unfun" for you, personally, to play. Please, ignore the fact that it's my main and I love it dearly as is. What do I , a BLM main since I started playing in Heavensward, matter? What does the class fantasy of having to trade cast times for superior damage, matter at all? It's all about YOUR personal feelings about a job you don't even main, and Yoshida should piss my goodwill and love for it away just to satisfy your selfish needs. Ignore the fact that I enjoy working within its limitations, ingnore that I love it and get the biggest rush when I finally understand a fight and learn the exact moments to use my abilities to tap-dance around the boss, evade its attacks and STILL get to keep my casts rolling. Please continue with your egotistical self-centered desires. Please destroy it, instead of just acknowledging it's not for you personally.

WoW gets expansions that actually expand the game's content and core systems, adding new systems and features and shaking up the status quo every time. They even get WoW Classic, in multiple flavors, to boot.

Meanwhile, I apparently registered for Final Fantasy XIV: Lowest Common Denominator Edition.

[PyurBlue]

Black Mage having awkward cast times doesn't 'define' the job, it makes it unpleasant to play.

How? If there was a need to weave heavily as with other classes, perhaps. BLM doesn't weave often though and when it does it has 3 Xeno, 1 Thunder per 30 seconds, FS proc, 2 Triplecasts, 1 Swiftcast, 1 Despair, 2 Paradox. F4 at 2.8 seconds is just pressing your cast button every 2.8 seconds, though by having these long casts you also get the benefit of being able to make them instant for a DPS gain with the tradeoff being you might want to use instant for mobility instead. It's decision making and it's fun. Admittedly encounter design takes away a little of that since after a while you know nearly exactly when to press what, but there is at least a tiny bit of variation from mistakes and party composition. The encounter design could also be made more variable too.

[yesnt]

Please continue with your egotistical self-centered desires. Please destroy it, instead of just acknowledging it's not for you personally.

I remember these exact same discussion when they announced the destruction of Astro. You are right. People who do not want to play the job because they dislike it for what it is should just... not play it. I am sorry they are messing up your main job too. All we can really do is sit and watch our favorite game turn into a graveyard of the things we used to enjoy since the devs don't care. I assume that all the job gutting is supposed to make their jobs easier and therefor optimize profits. Idk. I am just sad about all this.

[Auro_Seldaris]

I remember these exact same discussion when they announced the destruction of Astro. You are right. People who do not want to play the job because they dislike it for what it is should just... not play it. I am sorry they are messing up your main job too. All we can really do is sit and watch our favorite game turn into a graveyard of the things we used to enjoy since the devs don't care. I assume that all the job gutting is supposed to make their jobs easier and therefor optimize profits. Idk. I am just sad about all this.

Believe me, I feel that pain. AST was my original main healer job. I loved managing the cards, but it was killed by raidbrain "MUH OPTIMIZATION"

I lowkey wish raiders would go away. SE just caters to them and they convince SE to optimize the fun and challenge out of literally everything.

[Valence]

At least mentalities are changing. When they butchered MCH and alienated its mains, everybody laughed at us and sang "it's so much better now! Reassembled Drill feels so good!".

[SubmarineAlt]

Believe me, I feel that pain. AST was my original main healer job. I loved managing the cards, but it was killed by raidbrain "MUH OPTIMIZATION"

I lowkey wish raiders would go away. SE just caters to them and they convince SE to optimize the fun and challenge out of literally everything.

You believing that they made the AST changes for raiders, in a thread about changes that prove that they don't give a shit about higher end players, is absolutely wild.

Repair that chip on your shoulder. Raiders didn't kill your dog, and you don't have to let them live rent free in your head.

[Auro_Seldaris]

You believing that they made the AST changes for raiders, in a thread about changes that prove that they don't give a shit about higher end players, is absolutely wild.

Repair that chip on your shoulder. Raiders didn't kill your dog, and you don't have to let them live rent free in your head.

Oh please. The raider optimization Discord was called what again? THE BALANCE. Because that was the only card they thought was worth a damn. They complained about Balance-fishing and "card RNG" and "muh optimization" til the devs gutted the job. Twice. So that all it is now is particle effect showoff and lottery scratch-off tickets. Or whatever tf it is now, because I gave up on it years ago and switched to Sage. Most casual/midcore AST mains were perfectly fine with the job as it was. Those changes were certainly not for normal players of the job, so who was it for then? Raiders. Because it made the job more "statistically consistent".

The fact you don't think they cater to raiders, when they keep coming up with new raider content, and virtually all the content released for DT so far has been raider-coded is, itself, effing hilarious.

Besides, how does this thread prove they don't care about high-end players? According to Exxu Plosion's analysis, that's basically who these BLM changes will benefit most... newbies to the job, and raiders. Because it's going to make it simpler for raiders to execute than current BLM play. (even though personally all he wanted was potency changes and nerft to PCT, not gutting the job's identity and class fantasy.)

Unless you think Exxu doesn't know what he's talking about.

[TheDustyOne]

Oh please. The raider optimization Discord was called what again? THE BALANCE. Because that was the only card they thought was worth a damn. They complained about Balance-fishing and "muh optimization" til the devs gutted the job. Twice. So that all it is now is particle effect showoff and lottery scratch-off tickets. Most casual/midcore AST mains were perfectly fine with the job as it was. Those changes were certainly not for normal players of the job, so who was it for then? Raiders. Because it made the job more "statistically consistent".

I don't think it's a hardcore vs casual distinction that made AST into what it is now. Many of the dedicated AST players I've seen, including hardcore, liked old AST more when it had varied cards. Casual players only care if it's fun, they won't bother to go for absolute optimized play, while hardcore will do what they can to get as much performance out of the hands dealt to them as possible. Make it easy to get best performance, and even the hardcore will get bored, so they also don't want to gut jobs.

The biggest problem came from those who didn't care and just wanted the best performance with little effort. You'll get those people in both ends of the hardcore/casual spectrum, the problem is just people not wanting to learn how to play a job.

I'd argue that Jank isn't 'complexity', and agree with what someone else here said about the difference between 'funk', which gives a job identity, and 'jank', which harms the identity of the job. Black Mage having awkward cast times doesn't 'define' the job, it makes it unpleasant to play. Current Tillana doesn't give Dancer 'complexity', it ruins a core aspect of gauge management by punishing the player for things outside of their control.

You still have to define what "jank" and "funk" are and why Black Mage is "janky" instead of "funky". I only used the term clunky, which also still wasn't all that well defined. The Black Mage example you give sounds more like the "funk" you describe as it was a major part of Black Mages identity as a turret caster; stay in the same spot for as long as possible to cause as much damage as possible. But according to you, it's janky. So what makes something "janky" vs something "funky"? And what other examples would you give? The cast time being longer than the recast time I don't think qualifies as it's ultimately balanced around damage per second, so as long as the long cast is appropriately given extra potency to account for the clipped GCD, it's not a concern to worry about.

[Tint]

I don't think it's a hardcore vs casual distinction that made AST into what it is now. Many of the dedicated AST players I've seen, including hardcore, liked old AST more when it had varied cards. Casual players only care if it's fun, they won't bother to go for absolute optimized play, while hardcore will do what they can to get as much performance out of the hands dealt to them as possible. Make it easy to get best performance, and even the hardcore will get bored, so they also don't want to gut jobs.

I think you are both right. It were not the ASTs who complained. They changed AST because the DDs complained about not getting the right cards. Which I think is a general theme: They dumb down the jobs to remove friction points between the players. Not to the benefit of the people who are playing the job, but everyone else. Who wants to have a BLM in the party when they could have a Picto? Who wants to deal with a bad healer when you can reduce healing requirements and give tanks more healing skills? Who wants to deal with a bad tank when aggro and boss positioning can become more or less automated? Who wants to deal with a bad DD when they can make the rotations even more easy?

[Riusvell]

Believe me, I feel that pain. AST was my original main healer job. I loved managing the cards, but it was killed by raidbrain "MUH OPTIMIZATION"

I lowkey wish raiders would go away. SE just caters to them and they convince SE to optimize the fun and challenge out of literally everything.

If they'd cater to us, we'd have more complex jobs.
I don't get your point.