"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

[TBerry]

I feel like arguing ‘tanks are pointless anyway so we can just ignore their role’ when there’s a much more evident green-coloured role that’s infinitely more pointless is just a never-ending spiral.

I mean couldn’t it easily be argued by this logic that ‘healers are useless and barely need to touch any abilities so lets just have the tank do their job because it’s so easy. If healers want to do their own job they can go to the forums and complain about encounter design’? Isn’t it literally faster and easier to just do 1T 3DPS* anyway?

In the current environment…playing designated healer in a game where healing is meaningless isn’t a ‘role mechanic’ either. Isn’t it kinda hypocritical to say ‘healers and dps can take the tank’s role because it’s pointless anyway’ but simultaneously argue ‘healers are having their role infringed upon by tanks and it’s not fair (even though it’s pointless and can be easily fulfilled by others)’. It’s Square’s decision to make tanks useless but that isn’t an excuse to have healers or dps pushing into their role. Like can one really advocate one thing and support the complete opposite at the same time?

Either we want role-specific contributions in combat (i.e only tanks manage aggro, only healers heal, overly literal interpretation but point stands) or we want a PvP role-agnostic style where it’s every man for themselves. Because clearly the ‘everyone has a fixed role but the only one that really exists is dps’ middle ground devs are going for now isn’t really working from what I can see.

Idk just doesn’t seem fair to me to argue ‘tanks should just let the others do their job and be thankful we allow them to exist’ but for healers it’s absolutely unconscionable that someone else can do their job for them and they should be thankful we allow them to exist lol. Like why would you do the healing when the tank can just pop one of their millions of healing cooldowns and do it for you? Isn’t that literally the same logic as ‘why would tanks pull when you can have one of the dps do it and pop Arm’s Length or [class-specific defensive]’?


* not that you couldn’t do 1T 3H you’d just be there a while

This. Yes, thank you so much. This is a well-articulated argument.

[Supersnow845]

That's the guy's opinion then, we can argue about details like that sometime in the future. Though "lead" can also mean simply being in front. But yes, puller. Tanks aren't suposed to be just aggro shopping carts.

Yes and “puller” is a meaningless title and a meaningless role in a game that doesn’t have agro management because whether you pull or the DPS/healer pulls the end result is the same, 2 GCD’s later the tank has agro by doing nothing at all

It’s not the DPS or healers fault tanks have no role mechanics but clinging onto a nebulous puller/leader term is pointless when nobody even agrees how far the term extends. Does the tank control how much is pulled? Or only that they pull first? Does it really make a meaningful difference? What if the rest of the party wants more?

The argument shouldn’t be “respect this pointless ‘role’ tanks have invented for themselves after losing agro when said role was actually a meaningful contributor to agro (and also steal healers role on the side)” it should be “give us meaningful agro management back” as I simply do not see “puller” as a substitute for agro controller

Regardless I’m not advocating DPS and healers actively try to do the pulling. I’m saying if they do it’s not a big deal. The core of the problem is the fact that square won’t make agro meaningful if you give tanks agro control then DPS or healers pulling becomes actively detrimental to the party then YPYT becomes a more nuanced discussion as pulling ahead of the tank becomes a functional net negative

I guess you can widen the point to “execution of role mechanics is functionally role agnostic because of how easy dungeons are but availability of role mechanics is limited”

The tank role doesn’t have a mechanic currently so tanks and healers share healers mechanic of healing. The pseudo tank “role” of pulling can be done by anyone because tanks don’t have a mechanic and all roles do DPS. The fix is to give agro management back to the tanks and healing back to the healers. So the tanks have a defined role mechanic back and order of role interaction in the dungeon is re-established

[Amvin]

I find this discussion very surreal because in most dungeons - I'd say 90% of them - it's not even an issue because nobody runs ahead to pull. I rarely experience it, but if someone does, I just wait until they bring the mobs to me and then AoE them. How is that a problem?

... The truth is, that the aggro system in FF14 is quite fickle (as demonstrated when GNB and DRK lost the damage component of their gap closer, and now mobs aggro in a weird way compared to PLD and WAR), and dps pulling with healers getting aggro a second later can cause mobs to run in weird patterns...

This, specifically, I have observed as well and it's annoying, I agree wholeheartedly. Still, not hard to resolve but it does require to maybe go a few steps back and get those mobs. I don't like it but it is what it is.

... just have tanks steal the healer role ...

The thing is, so many healers don't know how to heal anymore. Because I was curious, I recently did a few dungeons without using my heals - the ones that 'healers' find so offensive (Bloodwhetting, Equilibrium, Shake). And guess what, I got told to use all of my kit because they didn't actually want to heal. Then there are the Cure 1 Heros. The 'Esuna doesn't exist' believers. The 'I'm a pacifist, I don't do damage' people. The 'I stand in every AoE imaginable' folks. And so on and so forth. I'm glad tanks (and dps) don't need to rely on such players, but I do understand how it can be boring for an actually good healer.

To get back to the topic of this thread - generally YPYT is not a good mindset to have, but if either the healer or the tank is weak (gear, experience etc.) there is nothing wrong with going slower and adjusting to the situation.

[Supersnow845]

I find this discussion very surreal because in most dungeons - I'd say 90% of them - it's not even an issue because nobody runs ahead to pull. I rarely experience it, but if someone does, I just wait until they bring the mobs to me and then AoE them. How is that a problem?



This, specifically, I have observed as well and it's annoying, I agree wholeheartedly. Still, not hard to resolve but it does require to maybe go a few steps back and get those mobs. I don't like it but it is what it is.




The thing is, so many healers don't know how to heal anymore. Because I was curious, I recently did a few dungeons without using my heals - the ones that 'healers' find so offensive (Bloodwhetting, Equilibrium, Shake). And guess what, I got told to use all of my kit because they didn't actually want to heal. Then there are the Cure 1 Heros. The 'Esuna doesn't exist' believers. The 'I'm a pacifist, I don't do damage' people. The 'I stand in every AoE imaginable' folks. And so on and so forth. I'm glad tanks (and dps) don't need to rely on such players, but I do understand how it can be boring for an actually good healer.

To get back to the topic of this thread - generally YPYT is not a good mindset to have, but if either the healer or the tank is weak (gear, experience etc.) there is nothing wrong with going slower and adjusting to the situation.

The concept of “bad players exist so roles should overlap” is flawed if the exchange is not equivalent

For example you mention that “some healers are bad so I can cover myself if said healer is bad”, a fair (though strange for an MMO) mindset. However besides the initial act of pulling who can really effectively do the tanks role for them if they are terrible and who can replace a high damage dealer if your PCT wants to spam fire in red instead of their muses. I’ve had just as many “rampart what’s rampart” and “blizzard 1 is the only button on my hotbar” as I’ve had “sylphies”. However role coverage is not equivalent. No matter how competant your healer is DPS simply do not make effective tanks (especially casters) and tanks/healers simply do not make effective DPS compared to say PCT. However tanks do make effective healers in dungeons. That’s my problem with tank healing in dungeons but that’s not really the point of the conversation. The problem is lack of tank mechanics in trash pulls

As a tank as a secondary main I want agro management back. I want to be a “tank” in dungeons and make enemies want to hit me, not just a weird gimped melee DPS with a suspicious amount of healing

[AllenThyl]

Again if the DPS do happen to get ahead and pull agro then simply pull it off them. Like yall are acting like it’s rocket science to literally be right up with the DPS keeping agro. Because as the original point the other person made you cannot lead from the back. It’s up to you to be at the front if you want to lead, not everyone else to position themselves constantly behind you

But that's the thing, it doesn't just "happen" somehow, it requires actively doing it. Further, as I said, the mob pattern might be wonky, and it might not be trivial to get aggro back. Especially when the healer got aggro, is more on the slower side. As such, to get aggro back requires the tank to now run back a bit, which is antithetical to the whole motivation that is usually used to justify dps pulling (and has always been used by the people I personally encountered doing this). A wayward mob being behind 1-3 gcds also lives longer, meaning that the pull itself will take longer.

As I said, I can understand the frustration with slow tanks, that's why I try to tank as much as possible. I had a leisurely strolling tank today not even using sprint in a lvl 100 dungeon, and that was annoying to no end. However, in these discussion, "dps pulling" is always framed as a universally positive thing, no matter the context. In my experience, these "racing" dps are usually bad at their jobs as well (uneven distribution of damage, later packs / higher hp mobs do not got prioritized with moves), and often stop dpsing when there are still mobs to kill, just to be the first on the line when the purple wall disappears.

[Amvin]

As a tank as a secondary main I want agro management back. I want to be a “tank” in dungeons and make enemies want to hit me, not just a weird gimped melee DPS with a suspicious amount of healing

This I can 100% agree with. It would be fun to stance dance or to tab through a pack of mobs to hit each with a high threat skill or something like that. I'm used to it from other games and find aggro management in 14 ... let's say very simple. The only time I do have to work for aggro is in raid, when my co-tank has stance on as well, but that's not even due to aggro mechanics but just because of the other tank jobs having more burst or damage output, given equal player skill.

[Merrigan]

As I said, I can understand the frustration with slow tanks, that's why I try to tank as much as possible. I had a leisurely strolling tank today not even using sprint in a lvl 100 dungeon, and that was annoying to no end. However, in these discussion, "dps pulling" is always framed as a universally positive thing, no matter the context. In my experience, these "racing" dps are usually bad at their jobs as well (uneven distribution of damage, later packs / higher hp mobs do not got prioritized with moves), and often stop dpsing when there are still mobs to kill, just to be the first on the line when the purple wall disappears.

This, damn it. So I don't know if I'm the unlucky one, and that's entirely possible. But this kind of ‘debate’ makes me smile because I've very rarely come across players with this mentality who are good dps. As a result, as in many cases, there's a crazy contrast between what's said on the forum, where, when you read those who defend the practice, they're excellent players who basically help the group by doing it, and what I see in the dungeon, where the player concerned is above all a harried oddball who doesn't give a shit about pulling in a relevant way. Where are these famous players who pull efficiently and respect the tank by pulling the adds to them?

It's got to the point where, when I see a message like this, I automatically think: ‘aaaaah. You're that famous bard who pulls, does a miserable dps, then bails before the mobs get killed because... Because I don't know, the purple wall seems incredibly beautiful to look at?’

More seriously, I don't understand this type of subject. Honestly, I couldn't care less about the pseudo-debate on the effectiveness or otherwise of this type of practice. It's just that it's a group game; we've all signed up to play together when we enter a group search. That implies a minimum of respect for the pace at which the others play. Knowing that the vast majority of groups pull w2w without question and that a slower tank doesn't do it to annoy the rest of the group, if a player is incapable of slowing down the pace one dungeon out of 5, then I don't think he has any business being in a PF dungeon.

[SubmarineAlt]

Outside of ARR and select dungeons after, a tank "pulling slow" is a tank single pulling due to the set nature of 2 packs > wall. Tanks and healers who are unable to handle 2 packs need to either stick to trusts, or drop the role.

All this shit about dps pulling ahead is irrelevant. If there are mobs for the dps to pull in the first place, the tank has failed to do their job.

This is why I always run dungeons with a friend. Kicking due to a difference of playstyle is well within our rights, and a playstyle of "slow and steady" is unacceptable. They can queue up again to waste people's time further, or they can do trusts. Either way, it's very quickly not our problem anymore.

You all make it sound like some complex, deep subject when it's not. The standard is w2w because aggro is trivial, add damage is irrelevant in the face of the tools healers and tanks have, and there is no intrinsic value to taking longer vs not doing so. It is a tank and healer's job to learn to manage w2w pulls in the same way it's a dps's job to learn how to aoe and perform their rotations. Anything less is griefing your party, and Square has made features that allow you to not be a burden.

Luckily, the VAST majority of the community understands the very basic concept of "don't be a burden to strangers," so single pull baby tanks are rare, and healers that can't handle a normal pull are even more so. Those of you who advocate for tanks to go "slow" are well into the minority. Those that seem to have constant stories where these issues of dps pulling ahead arise? You're the only common denominator for your problem. Take the fucking hint.

[Red-thunder]

Kicking due to a difference of playstyle is well within our rights, and a playstyle of "slow and steady" is unacceptable

This is so based

[Absurdity]

Where are these famous players who pull efficiently and respect the tank by pulling the adds to them?

Probably no longer on Chaos. I still remember when EU was a single DC and I certainly do not miss the players from Moogle, lmao.