"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

[AllenThyl]

YOU can literally not let anyone else pull ahead of you if you simply RUN and take agro first.

Nah, sorry, but that is simply wrong, by virtue of tanks only having gap closers which require a target, while dps have targetless dashes. I pull as fast as possible with sprint right from the start and gap closers when in range, and most runs are completely uneventful in that regard. However, I do get the occasional dps that is dashing ahead instead of dpsing the already pulled mobs, and when I ask them to stop, I do get the same kind of arguments we get here, as if I were single pulling while slow walking. The truth is, that the aggro system in FF14 is quite fickle (as demonstrated when GNB and DRK lost the damage component of their gap closer, and now mobs aggro in a weird way compared to PLD and WAR), and dps pulling with healers getting aggro a second later can cause mobs to run in weird patterns. So we now have a few wayward mobs, which aren't in range for aoe, with dps who spend more of their time on movement / pulling instead of dpsing, healers having to heal instead of dpsing, while simultanously deluding themselves that they actually "mAkE thE rUn Go FaStEr". Yes, slow tanks are annoying (and it should be called out, especially in higher level content), but the ego and selfishness of some non-tanks doesn't gain any validity due to that fact.

[TBerry]

Tanks shouldn't have to RACE the DPS for aggro. you gain nothing because as DPS you have to run back to the tank. You essentially run more but don't gain any time because tnhe Tank STILL moves at the same speed.
You maybe get mobs faster, but the time of arrival at the wall stays the same.

[Supersnow845]

So you demand that everyone should be completely dependent on the healers, by stripping most self sustainability, and give them back their job fantasy and have everyone cater to it, while essentially stealing credit from adventurers and scions, wasting Hraesvalgr's eye, and making Zenos looks average, and only feel empowered by putting tanks down.
But oh no, Tanks cannot be anything more than brainless damage sponges who have to do your bidding because you said so.

If the tank and everyone else dies because you overpull (because bad gear or being new, or even lack of skill), especially in early game dungeons that's on you. If you get kicked because of uncooperative behavior, that's on you.
I don't know in how many variations I have to repeat it, but I still think anyone posting in this thread is just self-reporting and admitting guilt to being a shit-head.

I still have no idea how people seem to have no idea there is a middle ground between tanks are playable ping pong balls being bounced between the healer and the boss and tanks literally not even needing the rest of the party. Do you people actually think the 14 tanks are balanced? Like do you genuinely think that what the tanks can do is balanced relative to the damage the game puts out (side note genuinely WTF was that “stealing credit from x y and z about). Regardless this has nothing to do with literally just “if you want to be the leader then actually lead”

Nah, sorry, but that is simply wrong, by virtue of tanks only having gap closers which require a target, while dps have targetless dashes. I pull as fast as possible with sprint right from the start and gap closers when in range, and most runs are completely uneventful in that regard. However, I do get the occasional dps that is dashing ahead instead of dpsing the already pulled mobs, and when I ask them to stop, I do get the same kind of arguments we get here, as if I were single pulling while slow walking. The truth is, that the aggro system in FF14 is quite fickle (as demonstrated when GNB and DRK lost the damage component of their gap closer, and now mobs aggro in a weird way compared to PLD and WAR), and dps pulling with healers getting aggro a second later can cause mobs to run in weird patterns. So we now have a few wayward mobs, which aren't in range for aoe, with dps who spend more of their time on movement / pulling instead of dpsing, healers having to heal instead of dpsing, while simultanously deluding themselves that they actually "mAkE thE rUn Go FaStEr". Yes, slow tanks are annoying (and it should be called out, especially in higher level content), but the ego and selfishness of some non-tanks doesn't gain any validity due to that fact.

Again if the DPS do happen to get ahead and pull agro then simply pull it off them. Like yall are acting like it’s rocket science to literally be right up with the DPS keeping agro. Because as the original point the other person made you cannot lead from the back. It’s up to you to be at the front if you want to lead, not everyone else to position themselves constantly behind you

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I mean, if somebody pulls ahead of you. Let them do it? Let the mob converge on them, THEN AoE (I do this when somebody pulls ahead all the time). What's so hard about that? They won't die from 1-2 slaps, and you get a little 'hp shield' for using your healer/dps' health bar. Is it easier for the tank to let them pull? Sure. But let's not act like breathing an AoE to a pack to yank off the enmity is a hard task. If you see one of your party member are super eager to pull, you can always make a mental note of that to adapt very easily, ask, or vote kick them. At the end of the day the majority gets their way.

You can blame it on SE for making enmity and survivability being a joke that nobody nowadays take these pulls anymore seriously outside some rare specimens.

[TBerry]

I still have no idea how people seem to have no idea there is a middle ground between tanks are playable ping pong balls being bounced between the healer and the boss and tanks literally not even needing the rest of the party. Do you people actually think the 14 tanks are balanced? Like do you genuinely think that what the tanks can do is balanced relative to the damage the game puts out (side note genuinely WTF was that “stealing credit from x y and z about). Regardless this has nothing to do with literally just “if you want to be the leader then actually lead”

So how does their survivability mean they can just be treated like shit? Like you people have absolutely no respect and seem to think simply running from A to B while everyone else does their job is fulfilling gameplay, yet here you are demanding job fantasy while condemning tanks to above.

[Supersnow845]

Whether it’s a net positive to let the DPS pull or not is irrelevant to the point TBerry quoted from me anyway.

The person I replied to said that allowing anyone else to pull ahead is tantamount to stealing the tanks identity as the tank “fantasy” is being the leader.

So if you want to lead as that’s your fantasy it’s your job to always aim to be in front and be the first one to the mob pack if possible. Your job as a “leader” isn’t to demand everyone stay behind you while you go at your own speed

So how does their survivability mean they can just be treated like shit? Like you people have absolutely no respect and seem to think simply running from A to B while everyone else does their job is fulfilling gameplay, yet here you are demanding job fantasy while condemning tanks to above.

Who is being treated like shit? Pulling ahead of the tank isn’t treating them like shit or not giving them respect. As I’ve said in hundreds of posts before it’s squares decision around agro in this game that makes tanks both have functionally no unique role mechanics and have no claim to pull control as agro is meaningless in this game but that isn’t an excuse to just have tanks steal the healer role. If you want engaging tank gameplay that involves agro management then demand it back. I’ll support it. THEN there is legit arguments around tanks being the controlled puller. But in the current environment not so much and playing designated puller in a game where agro is meaningless isn’t a “role mechanic”

[TBerry]

Whether it’s a net positive to let the DPS pull or not is irrelevant to the point TBerry quoted from me anyway.

The person I replied to said that allowing anyone else to pull ahead is tantamount to stealing the tanks identity as the tank “fantasy” is being the leader.

So if you want to lead as that’s your fantasy it’s your job to always aim to be in front and be the first one to the mob pack if possible. Your job as a “leader” isn’t to demand everyone stay behind you while you go at your own speed

It's not about leading, it's about being the meat shield, distraction and the ram.

[Supersnow845]

It's not about leading, it's about being the meat shield, distraction and the ram.

Then why did you reply to my comment refuting the guy who specifically said tank fantasy WAS being the leader. Go argue with him

[TBerry]

Then why did you reply to my comment refuting the guy who specifically said tank fantasy WAS being the leader. Go argue with him

That's the guy's opinion then, we can argue about details like that sometime in the future. Though "lead" can also mean simply being in front. But yes, puller. Tanks aren't suposed to be just aggro shopping carts.

[Connor]

I feel like arguing ‘tanks are pointless anyway so we can just ignore their role’ when there’s a much more evident green-coloured role that’s infinitely more pointless is just a never-ending spiral.

I mean couldn’t it easily be argued by this logic that ‘healers are useless and barely need to touch any abilities so lets just have the tank do their job because it’s so easy. If healers want to do their own job they can go to the forums and complain about encounter design’? Isn’t it literally faster and easier to just do 1T 3DPS* anyway?

In the current environment…playing designated healer in a game where healing is meaningless isn’t a ‘role mechanic’ either. Isn’t it kinda hypocritical to say ‘healers and dps can take the tank’s role because it’s pointless anyway’ but simultaneously argue ‘healers are having their role infringed upon by tanks and it’s not fair (even though it’s pointless and can be easily fulfilled by others)’. It’s Square’s decision to make tanks useless but that isn’t an excuse to have healers or dps pushing into their role. Like can one really advocate one thing and support the complete opposite at the same time?

Either we want role-specific contributions in combat (i.e only tanks manage aggro, only healers heal, overly literal interpretation but point stands) or we want a PvP role-agnostic style where it’s every man for themselves. Because clearly the ‘everyone has a fixed role but the only one that really exists is dps’ middle ground devs are going for now isn’t really working from what I can see.

Idk just doesn’t seem fair to me to argue ‘tanks should just let the others do their job and be thankful we allow them to exist’ but for healers it’s absolutely unconscionable that someone else can do their job for them and they should be thankful we allow them to exist lol. Like why would you do the healing when the tank can just pop one of their millions of healing cooldowns and do it for you? Isn’t that literally the same logic as ‘why would tanks pull when you can have one of the dps do it and pop Arm’s Length or [class-specific defensive]’? I’d argue both those things are just as bad as each other


* not that you couldn’t do 1T 3H you’d just be there a while