patch 7.2 or next expansion

[Shougun]

Many ideas read good on paper and don't work out as intended, true, but also if say many times SE has actually listened to feedback but only to the shallow most extent. For example I was a huge fan / wish for the island like content, but what we got was very shallow and maybe great for some but bewildered me with Excel based gameplay.

Not saying your concerns can't be concerns but imo the core issues:

1. Gameplay roleplay is desperately neglected. This is a large encompassing concept but includes lack of job identity, lack of item identity, lack of world identity (open world is neglected to almost be only a corridor). You could I guess summarize it as the game is having an identity crisis.. but I think gameplay roleplay gives a stronger sense of direction. The R in RPG is dying each patch. There is still game, but it lacks the roleplay. Story is of course there but it's one pillar of a structure and when it falters.. well good luck.

2. Stat and content scaling easily create dull experiences and lack of job value. Where healer loses value (though they have tried to nudge it back), jobs become boring to play, and content becomes ignore all the mechanics.

3. Content is overly routine. As in DDR, highly predictable. Not much reaction as it is anticipation that creates quality play. Memorization wins, and add-ons become easily supremely useful.

4. May line up with 1. But SE adds limbs to the tree rather than bolster the tree itself. Content is set off to the side in such a way that you could never know it even existed.


My imo.

[VeyaAkemi]

Memorization wins, and add-ons become easily supremely useful.

Just one point that I'd like to address, currently automation plogons are sophisticated enough that, provided the correct data, they can execute any mechanic in the game flawlessly, it's not tied to the mechanics being on a set timeline, they read the data of what is going on in the game in real time, and execute accordingly, this is necessary for them to work at all, as mechanics do have a degree of variation even when they are on a schedule, so they would still be, as you put it, "supremely useful" even with perfect, fully reactive encounter design.

[Shougun]

Just one point that I'd like to address, currently automation plogons are sophisticated enough that, provided the correct data, they can execute any mechanic in the game flawlessly, it's not tied to the mechanics being on a set timeline, they read the data of what is going on in the game in real time, and execute accordingly, this is necessary for them to work at all, as mechanics do have a degree of variation even when they are on a schedule, so they would still be, as you put it, "supremely useful" even with perfect, fully reactive encounter design.

Ah, yeah I know of those too but I suppose I was attempting to draw a line at plugins that you might think could be in the game normally (like ones that relate to spikey plants) vs the ones that 'do it all for you' (essentially botting). The info is publicly available so I definitely am aware of some of them. I am impressed with them in a sense, and many are actually like "oh that definitely should be in the game", but also I think "DOH" *face palm* as SE helped create this situation by not creating a nice box that many addon creators would play in. Even guild wars 2 created a third party environment that played nice (they have an API setup), but SE's approach effectively forced the talent to go into the shadows- and there they went growing and growing until it's more of a shadow tsunami.

[Mikey_R]

Not saying your concerns can't be concerns but imo the core issues:

1. Gameplay roleplay is desperately neglected. This is a large encompassing concept but includes lack of job identity, lack of item identity, lack of world identity (open world is neglected to almost be only a corridor). You could I guess summarize it as the game is having an identity crisis.. but I think gameplay roleplay gives a stronger sense of direction. The R in RPG is dying each patch. There is still game, but it lacks the roleplay. Story is of course there but it's one pillar of a structure and when it falters.. well good luck.

2. Stat and content scaling easily create dull experiences and lack of job value. Where healer loses value (though they have tried to nudge it back), jobs become boring to play, and content becomes ignore all the mechanics.

3. Content is overly routine. As in DDR, highly predictable. Not much reaction as it is anticipation that creates quality play. Memorization wins, and add-ons become easily supremely useful.

4. May line up with 1. But SE adds limbs to the tree rather than bolster the tree itself. Content is set off to the side in such a way that you could never know it even existed.

1. The problem with general statements like, 'lack of job identity' or 'lack of item identity' is really, that statement has no meaning. What is it about the items or the jobs or anything else that causes you to say it has a lack of identity. I try and get this information out of people, especially in regards to jobs. What would give jobs an 'identity' or, what does it mean to have an 'identity'. I have seen so many variation, some of which conflict with each other that such vague statements really mean nothing and I would say this is the biggest problem. People are quick to just type out buzz words but give no real context to what they actually mean. Even when Yoshi P said they were looking at job identity for 8.0, I had no reaction because, what does that actually mean?

2. Reduce the ilevel cap, add it to raids (both 8 man and 24 man) and trials, the stat scaling through the expansion then becomes a non issue. It is an easy fix, but even then, there are people who would complain about such a change because it would make things too hard.

3. Content has always been DDR. If you want to start shuffling the order of things, there are many thing you then need to take into consideration, including timing on tank busters, raid wides etc. that you start to see a pattern. Since there are so many different patterns, you just learn over time each one then that mystery is solved. Half the issue is the amount of times people run the content, it doesn't matter how RNG heavy it is, you will always find a pattern.

4. Going back to giving proper feedback, how could this be achieved? Or, more accurately, how do you propose these things get better attention?

[Shougun]

1. The problem with general statements like, 'lack of job identity' or 'lack of item identity' is really, that statement has no meaning. What is it about the items or the jobs or anything else that causes you to say it has a lack of identity. I try and get this information out of people, especially in regards to jobs. What would give jobs an 'identity' or, what does it mean to have an 'identity'. I have seen so many variation, some of which conflict with each other that such vague statements really mean nothing and I would say this is the biggest problem. People are quick to just type out buzz words but give no real context to what they actually mean. Even when Yoshi P said they were looking at job identity for 8.0, I had no reaction because, what does that actually mean?

2. Reduce the ilevel cap, add it to raids (both 8 man and 24 man) and trials, the stat scaling through the expansion then becomes a non issue. It is an easy fix, but even then, there are people who would complain about such a change because it would make things too hard.

3. Content has always been DDR. If you want to start shuffling the order of things, there are many thing you then need to take into consideration, including timing on tank busters, raid wides etc. that you start to see a pattern. Since there are so many different patterns, you just learn over time each one then that mystery is solved. Half the issue is the amount of times people run the content, it doesn't matter how RNG heavy it is, you will always find a pattern.

4. Going back to giving proper feedback, how could this be achieved? Or, more accurately, how do you propose these things get better attention?

I have a literal wall thread on 1. and many other walls buried in other threads, so excuse me for not always redumping on the forum. Honestly annoying to be suggested giving proper feedback given I am probably one of the most detailed including examples and why I feel a certain way.


Actually I have walls on all four topics, but 1. I have an entire thread for. If walls are too much I have made many many posts in smaller forms too.


The 4 points stand using some common sense you could self derive further, but I have posted in detail on all topics, many times. Do I need to bring my passport with all my post stamps so you don't accuse me of lack of suggestions? How about you ask for clarification if confused.

[Mikey_R]

The 4 points stand using some common sense you could self derive further, but I have posted in detail on all topics, many times. Do I need to bring my passport with all my post stamps so you don't accuse me of lack of suggestions? How about you ask for clarification if confused.

It is worth noting that my comments weren't necessarily aimed at you directly, however, it was a good opportunity to vent a few of my frustrations with some responses. If you are someone that does provide examples or does explain your points, then what I said in general do not apply to you, sorry for the confusion.

[Kaliesto]

Many ideas read good on paper and don't work out as intended, true, but also if say many times SE has actually listened to feedback but only to the shallow most extent. For example I was a huge fan / wish for the island like content, but what we got was very shallow and maybe great for some but bewildered me with Excel based gameplay.

Not saying your concerns can't be concerns but imo the core issues:

1. Gameplay roleplay is desperately neglected. This is a large encompassing concept but includes lack of job identity, lack of item identity, lack of world identity (open world is neglected to almost be only a corridor). You could I guess summarize it as the game is having an identity crisis.. but I think gameplay roleplay gives a stronger sense of direction. The R in RPG is dying each patch. There is still game, but it lacks the roleplay. Story is of course there but it's one pillar of a structure and when it falters.. well good luck.

2. Stat and content scaling easily create dull experiences and lack of job value. Where healer loses value (though they have tried to nudge it back), jobs become boring to play, and content becomes ignore all the mechanics.

3. Content is overly routine. As in DDR, highly predictable. Not much reaction as it is anticipation that creates quality play. Memorization wins, and add-ons become easily supremely useful.

4. May line up with 1. But SE adds limbs to the tree rather than bolster the tree itself. Content is set off to the side in such a way that you could never know it even existed.


My imo.

I think lot of it has to do with them not wanting to touch code that has since expanded very largely over many expansions and too afraid to actually make meaningful changes else it breaks something.

Also I wonder how much of their Dev. Institutional knowledge they still have left that understands how the game works.