Apyaahi was right. DT Final Role Quest Spoilers

[Mawlzy]

I can't believe people are unironically debating the morality of a badly written slapstick story that had horrible pacing.

slapstick -> trying to milk you for sympathy in the desert watching the stars -> randomly brutal comment about a clear buffoon in two dialogue options that was unnecessarily serious -> more slapstick and comedy.

I had no idea what they were going for with this story, they should've just stuck to Hildibrand levels of slapstick and called it a day. The writers are SO BAD

I'd agree the debate concerning the ethics of the antagonist is obscuring the fact that the "story" of this quest was probably the worst dross to date in FFXIV. It's genuinely difficult to so badly mangle a character development arc whilst at the same time mixing different writing devices and genres, and leaving the alleged MC scratching her head, muttering "err, wut?"

[Dikatis]

Well more than once we’ve begrudgingly acted in the syndicates interests in order to maintain the peace in uldah and we’ve also done the same in kugane

The only time I remember WoL willingly accommodating the Syndicate's interests is when they were just starting out as an adventurer and putting down the Hecatoncheires in Copperbell Mines because they were EATING PEOPLE. Any other times WoL helped the Syndicate were more incidental than anything. The Kugane one was foiling a coup by Kageyama, an even more corrupt and self-interested merchant. I've already described why Ugetsu's coup would do more harm than good and WoL probably would stand with a revolution if the populace supported it. And WoL has repeatedly busted other corrupt individuals and people in power, including oligarchic merchants like the antagonists of the ARR Society Quests, Akebono, Jucabra, Vanhudi and Jucabra in the Hildibrand quests, and Gurumi Boriumi in the Samurai quests. Heck, even in DT we go after Wihuwte, a dirty cop abusing his position to rob the people of Shaaloani blind. Claiming WoL is a jackbooted thug of the state is wrong.

There is also instances like with the kobolds that the limsan’s are 100% in the wrong but we represent limsa’s interests more than the kobolds in the name of future peace despite the kobolds being the ones wronged in the situation

And no one ever really denies that Limsa Lominsa is in the wrong. But if Titan and Leviathan are left to their own, they will drain the land of aether and render it infertile to life on top of the mass destruction they'll cause in Vylbrand. Everything west of Aleport used to be a town and farmland prior to being crushed by Leviathan's waves and a lot of people were killed. And that's not even getting into tempering making reconciliation and peacemaking impossible due to the fanaticism that primals enforce upon their followers. The moment an opportunity to end the war for good presents itself when Alisaie and G'raha created their tempering cure, Merlwyb and WoL seize it to end the conflict and continue to make reparations to the Sahagin.

[MikkoAkure]

Well more than once we’ve begrudgingly acted in the syndicates interests in order to maintain the peace in uldah and we’ve also done the same in kugane

We completely supported the Sultana's efforts at reformation until she was "assassinated" and we were forced into exile as a scapegoat. In compensation at the end of it though, Lolorito donated all of Teledji's and half of his own wealth to the Sultana to aid in her social policies.

Which Kugane situation are you referring to? The one where we stop a corrupt, rich merchant from overthrowing the government or the one where we stop a guy trying to destroy everything and return Hingashi to the period of warlords and constant fighting?

There is also instances like with the kobolds that the limsan’s are 100% in the wrong but we represent limsa’s interests more than the kobolds in the name of future peace despite the kobolds being the ones wronged in the situation

The problem here is that Limsa Lominsa is already here and has been for hundreds of years. The only solution that would 100% work for the Kobolds is the complete removal of the city-state, but since that's off the table they need to come to a compromise.

It feels like there's been a shift in how the Warrior of Light is written, moving away from being a hero or adventurer. Perhaps the writers are trying to be more "lighthearted" or "comedic," but in doing so, they seem to be stripping away the nuance they once explored.

They used to delve into themes like class consciousness, but recently, they appear to be steering away from that. For example, the Turali Travel Agency quests tasks us with setting up a tourism industry. However, these quests are written in a way that seems to erase or naively dismiss the harms tourism can inflict on local cultures and communities. Many recent quest lines have this entrepreneurial angle, where we are using our might or our fame to assist NPCs with selling things to the supposed benefit of all. This is what I mean when I refer to the Warrior of Light being transformed into a mercenary.

They are written in such a way so that there aren't any victims but only due to the writers choosing not to explore the consequences or writing solutions that to me, seem hopelessly naive. For example in the MSQ in Shaaloani

we help the railroad expand and deal with native people and environmental concerns that played out a lot differently in the real-world analogue they are drawing heavy inspiration from.

Adventurers are mercenaries though. The very first dialogue option you have in the entire game can even double down on your intentions on power, glory, or wealth. We only get involved in heroics after the Ascians personally try to kill us and after they're through, the very first thing we do is get a map to go plunder a dungeon.

I also don't understand what's wrong about being able to play a game where tourism industry is created where the tourists actually are made to care about the lands they're visiting or where technological progress uplifts people instead of uprooting them. As for the latter, that was already covered in the BLU quests which involve a similar region on the same continent so I don't believe there was a benefit of treading the same ground twice. Games don't necessarily NEED to be plagued with the same problems the real world has or be used to tell a message and it wouldn't be right if it's coming from a company in a different country and far removed from those issues.

Apyaahi's ideal ideals are not new and we institute complete societal change and alleviate oppression in Ishgard, Doma, Bozja (and by extension of defeating the IVth, Dalmasca), Ala Mhigo, and the whole continent of Ilsabard. But y'all are laser-focused on one single character in a silly storyline who was a joke to begin with.

[Dorito_Burrito]

Update: I've decided that Apyaahi would absolutely be a sovereign citizen if she was a real person.

[Valence]

This is why I'm not interested into discussing the motivations of each character in this thread and think that the OP was clearly not about this either. That character motivations can actually be debated on a political level, is actually a gauge of good quality world building. That the WoL has sometimes been pressed into helping the crooked side of the law to prevent a literal fire to happen brings a lot of nuance as seen for example in the post ARR to HW settlement with Lolorito, etc. On that level, this isn't much different, although we could argue on the actual level of threat and violence brought up by the "villains", but let's gloss over this. I have not always fully condoned the actions of the WoL and I find the WoL too passive and conformist to my taste, but that's something I'm ready to live with because even if the WoL could do better, they're not a political animal by nature and that's okay, and we all have different political affinities (even though FF as a franchise has most of the time verged on the side of radical anarchists and rebels, let's not kid ourselves for a second). It on the other hand turns them into a good arbiter of feuds and they usually are very good (even if helped by a sheer dose of convenient plotanium) at making sides suddenly "see the error of their ways", which has been a staple of most questlines, especially within side quests so far. I forgot which streamer said that compared to WoW where we just punish and smite evil, XIV's story has always been more about redemption and second chances, as well as understanding.

Now, we have this questline. It's not a problem with the characters, it's a problem of writing and tone, and more importantly, of message. That's what the OP is about, and that's what watsonian vs doylist was brought up earlier. It's a problem of constant, incoherent toneshifts, and a problem of the message it sends, and how it breaks the WoL's character. I was fine to have the WoL stand as a statu quo so far, but if the WoL is slowly turning into an authoritarian bully that behaves like a crummy cop, I'm sorry but I feel uncomfortable with this. If some questlines are making fun of the homeless, I'm not comfortable with this either. All it would take is for the WoL to look horrified. All it would take is going for the now probably overused XIV trope of "mutual understanding" at the end. All it would take is having an actual will on the writer's end to push for change politically in the states in question (whether it actually succeeds or not, that's not the point), or on the opposite, all it would take is just not to bring up the subject matter anymore.

The problem isn't the character concepts, the problem is the writer's intent (and skill).

[Basteala]

Apyaahi is a goofy villain played for a laugh, yet manages to be a more interesting and compelling character, even with silly vision on, than the vast majority of the new characters in DT's MSQ.

And that worries me.

[Dikatis]

but if the WoL is slowly turning into an authoritarian bully that behaves like a crummy cop.

But they haven't. WoL has consistently gone after dirty cops and attacked corrupt authority. They supported three rebellions against the second-most powerful authoritarian government in the Source's history and repeatedly smashed tools of THE most powerful authoritarian empire in their world's history. In Dawntrail, WoL goes after the tyrannical Zoraal Ja who was squeezing Alexandria dry of resources for the sake of his war with Tuliyollal and then defeats Sphene for wanting to become an all-consuming, unfeeling conqueror and harvester of worlds. While I agree that there should have been a dialogue option to try to extend Apyaahi an olive branch, she is also someone who revels in her own villainy and encourages her underlings to be as dramatic and self-indulgent as possible. Reconciliation was ultimately going to be impossible either way and stopping someone from bombing innocent civilians does not make one a government stooge.

You keep accusing WoL of being on the verge of becoming a jackbooted thug but have yet to provide any examples of them actually being one when basically everything points to the contrary.

[Valence]

Other people and I have already explained why aplenty, if you're not willing to examine this, I don't see the point in continuing further.

[Dikatis]

Other people and I have already explained why aplenty, if you're not willing to examine this, I don't see the point in continuing further.

Then tell me where WoL has acted like a crooked cop or is somehow descending into being an authoritarian stooge. You're making an accusation without giving an example. Because right now it feels like a nothing argument.

[Valence]

I reiterate: multiple people gave many examples multiple times but you keep glossing over it disingenuously. I am not interested anymore.