Viper Suggestion - Give Reaving Fangs the Armor Crush treatment

[Karuya]

I bring back this subject cause it looks important to me right now, specially after FRU came out.

I totally agree with the author, currently having basically half of our combo patterns not existing in the current viper is an absolute shame, specially when SE made an entire HUD for that.

I think that reaving fangs buffing steel fangs is an absolute necessity, but i think that this should not be a "buff", it should be a resource with no time limit like the monk has, because in some fights like FRU, it sometimes looks impossible to use them before they run out because some downtimes are really long. I don't know if vicewinder should give this resource, in my opinion just having reaving fangs in a 1/3 pattern is enough to make the feeling of the job way better, maybe putting it also on vicewinder would make it more complex and interesting, but in that case i feel like we would meet a lot of situations, specially in some ultimates, where we could overcap this resource and that would also lead to some weird things to consider in our rotations, i think just reaving buffing steel is enough, and of course it should be the same for the aoe.

In addition, i think the buff that the combos finishers give to other finishers should also be a resource, not a buff with a time limit. Again, we already see in some fight, like currently in FRU, that at some point, even a 1 minute timer is actually not enough to use it. It just makes this whole buff system sad because you can't even use it in some windows on this ultimate. I think both the finishers and the fangs boost should not have time limits, so you know that even if there is a long downtime where you can't use them, you will still need to try and follow your good combos path later. That's exactly like the monk works actually, which i like, and i think it would suit the current form of the game perfectly.

But i feel like if SE wants to do all of that, they would need to improve the HUD, like the monk or the ninja we would need some icons to see how much steel fangs resources remain, and another icon that would indicate which finisher we should do next, that would make a lot of icons but i don't think that would be a problem.

I really think that this would make a way better combo system for the viper, this looks mandatory to me. But please SE, if the icons are too much, at least just give 2 stacks of steel buff when using reaving, this would make the job so much funnier to play.

On another note, i think the viper's dps profile should be tweaked : his filler combos should be slightly nerfed, but his vicewinder combo should be greatly buffed, by doing that his opener would get slightly stronger, but more importantly, the viper would suffer less from downtimes in ultimate fights, because his vicewinder is more important in those fights.

I also feel like the reawaken combo should again be slightly buffed in order to synergize better with the team's raidbuffs.

[ovIm]

On another note, i think the viper's dps profile should be tweaked : his filler combos should be slightly nerfed, but his vicewinder combo should be greatly buffed, by doing that his opener would get slightly stronger, but more importantly, the viper would suffer less from downtimes in ultimate fights, because his vicewinder is more important in those fights.

I also feel like the reawaken combo should again be slightly buffed in order to synergize better with the team's raidbuffs.

Please lets not try to push Viper further into the same-y mold that all other classes have been pushed into. Its already bad enough that we have lost the plate-spinning buff management, making Viper burstier and more dependant on raidbuffs for good performance would muddle the job even more imho.
Viper could receive a downtime tool, surely, but I disagree with a need to adjust the damage curve of the job just because FRU/other Ultimates/Fights with lots of downtime exist.

[Carighan]

In fact I'd argue none of the Viper buffs should be buffs, as they're never of any use to someone who isn't that Viper. There's no reason to see them in the party UI.

Rather, bake them all into the UI element.

Though honestly I also think its DW combo should be faster baseline but then in turn the haste self-buff is replaced by something else. Reason being that with that buff, the difference between 2H and DW is - IMO - not pronounced enough. Mind you, same damage please, I just want the speed difference to more noticable in gameplay.

[Karuya]

When you talk about the plate-spinning management, i guess you're talking about noxious gnash. I read what you said on the other subject, and maybe there was ways that this skill could have come back in a better shape, but the way it was back then was absolute pain. In dungeon, it was a pain to apply on all targets, in extremes, it was a pain to apply efficiently on new targets and it was a pain to manage when there was any downtime, so it absolutely had to be either removed or completely rework. Sad that they chose to simply remove it.

For me the biggest problem of this removal is what we are talking about right now, the broken combo system and half of the combos not existing anymore, so since i'm pretty sure SE is never bringing back NG, i'm just thinking about ways to make the viper funnier while staying in the SE mentality for Dawntrail.

What i'm saying would not make the viper more dependant on raidbuffs for good performance, it's the opposite, i want the viper to get better rewards if the player manages to use his team's buffs in the best way. I don't think the viper "long term" dps should go down, just reward him more. Like, right now viper is not even considered to be one of the best partner for a dancer. For me that's a shame, how can a "selfish" job not be a better partner than the picto or the ninja ?

And yeah viper could receive a downtime tool but like, what tool ? SE would have to create a whole new animation for that, and i don't even know what this tool would be, a resource generator like samourai ? Reaper doesn't have one so they will never give it to viper. A tool that generate UF stacks ? That looks weird, it means that you won't be able to use vicewinder when the boss comes back after a downtime because you will overcap your UF stacks ? I don't know, everything i try to imagine looks weird.

You disagree with adjusting the damage curve because you like the viper's identity being the "long term" dps job i guess? I like this idea too, but the thing is, monk was this job before, then samourai took its place, then now viper takes samourai's place? We clearly see that the game is going in that direction, probably because of ultimates that have way more downtime that savage and jobs have to be balanced for their harder dps checks i guess, but anyway i just try to accept it and enjoy the game how it is, and try to find a way to balance it in both types of content.

In my opinion, from level 65 when you get vicewinder, this skill is underwhelming, we have to consider that this skill has a slower gcd than our other gcd, but this skill only does 500 + 620 + 620(+ 680 if we add the ogcd), if you consider the slower gcd, that's only 417 + 517 + 517(+ 680). A base combo is 300 + 300 + 500 (+280), that's only 751 potency difference.

Anyway, i understand you guys hoping to get some unique identity and complexity, i'm just trying to be realistic and talking about possible and easy things to implement considering SE's moves lately.

[ovIm]

When you talk about the plate-spinning management, i guess you're talking about noxious gnash. I read what you said on the other subject, and maybe there was ways that this skill could have come back in a better shape, but the way it was back then was absolute pain. In dungeon, it was a pain to apply on all targets, in extremes, it was a pain to apply efficiently on new targets and it was a pain to manage when there was any downtime, so it absolutely had to be either removed or completely rework. Sad that they chose to simply remove it.

Thats the issue some people have with the current job design philosophy. Square Enix works hard to remove any friction from jobs, so that they play as easy and smooth as possible without having to think about your rotation too much, so you can fully focus your attention on the fight. Personally speaking, moving every bit of gameplay from classes to fights is a bad strategic move, but it is the way Square Enix wants things to be. Does not mean people have to like it.

What i'm saying would not make the viper more dependant on raidbuffs for good performance, it's the opposite, i want the viper to get better rewards if the player manages to use his team's buffs in the best way. I don't think the viper "long term" dps should go down, just reward him more. Like, right now viper is not even considered to be one of the best partner for a dancer. For me that's a shame, how can a "selfish" job not be a better partner than the picto or the ninja ?

Yeah but... what do you think will happen if it gets implemented the way you envision it? Lets spin it a bit further, one of two things could happen. Either suddenly, Viper overtakes other classes noticeably when they time their burst with DPS buffs, and people cry for nerfs (see current PCT situation). The "reward" for hitting damage buffs would then be reduced, to keep Vipers damage curve in line with other DPS, thus creating more reliance on hitting buff windows, to keep performing well.
OR, it ships with the damage calculation already done so it is in line with other classes when hitting buff timings, thus nerfing VPR's damage when players drift.
You see the conundrum? The changes you propose would ultimately end up making Viper more dependent on raidbuffs one way or the other. Consider how Square Enix balanced classes in the past, you'll know this rings true.

You disagree with adjusting the damage curve because you like the viper's identity being the "long term" dps job i guess? I like this idea too, but the thing is, monk was this job before, then samourai took its place, then now viper takes samourai's place? We clearly see that the game is going in that direction, probably because of ultimates that have way more downtime that savage and jobs have to be balanced for their harder dps checks i guess, but anyway i just try to accept it and enjoy the game how it is, and try to find a way to balance it in both types of content.

Yeah, then people wanted those classes to better align with buff windows, and now here we are. Square has been pushing in one direction, and not everyone has been a fan. For me, the combat system has been in decline since Shadowbringers. Whether you like it the way it is or was, that's subjective at the end of the day.

[Isilien]

I wish Viper had some poisons they could apply as their utility and a proper non targeted gap closer more akin to Bard's backward leap. If not a gap opener, defensive skill to reduce damage.

[Metricasc]

feel like Viper overall had also just been hit hard by the "poster class" Syndrome. and the first time since SAM when a new class is the poster class for the expansion.
play rates and the removal of nash (and almost positionals) that was done way too soon likely came from those who only played the class for MSQ progression due to it being the "canon" class.

that being said removing nash as a management tool and not giving anything interesting to the class in return just made Viper highly uninteresting to play in the mid/long run for raiding despite having some stuff such as personal buff management, coils, gauge management and good tools for a couple of GCD's of downtime.

[Absurdity]

feel like Viper overall had also just been hit hard by the "poster class" Syndrome. and the first time since SAM when a new class is the poster class for the expansion.
play rates and the removal of nash (and almost positionals) that was done way too soon likely came from those who only played the class for MSQ progression due to it being the "canon" class.

that being said removing nash as a management tool and not giving anything interesting to the class in return just made Viper highly uninteresting to play in the mid/long run for raiding despite having some stuff such as personal buff management, coils, gauge management and good tools for a couple of GCD's of downtime.

Buff management was basically removed in the same step as the removal of Noxious Nash, since extending the timer for your haste/damage buff to 40 seconds and your combo potency buff to 60 seconds meant you would have to completely mess up everything for them to ever fall off.
Gauge management is also a joke unless you're going for triple Reawaken shenanigans, especially with Serpent's Ire giving you a free use of Reawaken instead of 50 gauge.

That's one of the big reasons why Viper feels so incredibly boring to actually play, it looks like it has all these things going on but most of them just resolve themselves automatically.

[Carighan]

I'd argue though that it really doesn't make a big difference. Yeah you could argue at least you had something to manage, but that's 1/10 vs the current 0/10, and in a way the current state at least feels more... honest? The job is press-the-ants, it doesn't pretend to be anything else any more.

[Metricasc]

Buff management was basically removed in the same step as the removal of Noxious Nash, since extending the timer for your haste/damage buff to 40 seconds and your combo potency buff to 60 seconds meant you would have to completely mess up everything for them to ever fall off.
Gauge management is also a joke unless you're going for triple Reawaken shenanigans, especially with Serpent's Ire giving you a free use of Reawaken instead of 50 gauge.

That's one of the big reasons why Viper feels so incredibly boring to actually play, it looks like it has all these things going on but most of them just resolve themselves automatically.

I pretty much agree with this, as the class went from keeping all your personal buffs up so you can have it all in your double reawaken. to press the glowy button next in order, don't overcap stuff, and keep stuff on cooldown. and this is after you sort out all of the fight specific stuff.