Maybe it's time for a casual "strike" if not complete departure.

[Volgia]

Well, let's see now.

First you misrepresent me by stating I'm misrepresenting Dark Souls, when all I said is I don't care about Dark Souls, after someone brought up Dark Souls, not me.

Secondly, you assume I've not tried EX or Savage and somehow would enjoy it if I do, when I've literally said I've no interest in it.

Someone else is telling me I'm playing the wrong game and genre, after I've spent 4,5 years having done everything else in the bloody game.

And for some reason, all these raiders can't understand the possibility that someone else might not enjoy the same things they do, and might possibly want something else for themselves to do and take is as a personal affront.

I don't care if you like hardcore raiding, go for it. I don't want them to remove hardcore raiding, have fun with it. But, I would like to also get my money's worth and have some activities to do in the damn game. Is that so bad?

I didn't assume anything. The Dark Souls analogy is there so you understand why people like raiding and that it has nothing to do with "flexing online". This isn't me forcing you to play content you don't like, you're getting upset over nothing.

Also, flip this over. I love raiding content, and I exhaust it pretty fast because there's so little of it. It's not fair for me to suddenly demand they stop adding content for housing so we can have more savage content, Chaotic Raids was added to no detriment of the way they release content.

I appreciate that we've finally departed from this nonsensical 'neurobiology dictates that only 1% of people have the theoretical potential to clear savage' and arrived at the real limiting factor: finding something fun or not.

The neurobiology argument almost broke me.

[Erzaa]

I didn't assume anything. The Dark Souls analogy is there so you understand why people like raiding and that it has nothing to do with "flexing online". This isn't me forcing you to play content you don't like, you're getting upset over nothing.

No, the Dark Souls analogy was brought up, because it's notorious for being harder than most games, and comes with the usual "git gud" mentality. That's why it was brought up. And again, I don't care. I don't play games to "git gud". I improve at a game passively, over time, by playing it, for as long as I find it entertaining. I've no interest in online bravado and flexing. If people enjoy Dark Souls, they can play Dark Souls, if people enjoy hardcore raiding, they can do hardcore raiding.

Also, flip this over. I love raiding content, and I exhaust it pretty fast because there's so little of it. It's not fair for me to suddenly demand they stop adding content for housing so we can have more savage content, Chaotic Raids was added to no detriment of the way they release content.

So little of it? Twelve Savages per expansion, Eight Extremes per expansion, Ultimates, of which Endwalker has two, and Dawntrail already has one and it's only patch 7.1 (we're likely to get another), and a Chaotic Alliance Raid. There's nothing little about the amount of high-end raids.

I appreciate that you enjoy high-end raiding, but you already got two extremes, one ultimate, four savages. Without SE providing more resources to the team to add more content overall (it would be great if they did!), would it have really hurt you, if they released the next casual piece of content before releasing Chaotic? Who's really being unfair here?

All I've had since finishing DT MSQ is one dungeon, and time gated beast tribes. They couldn't even release both the crafting and combat role quest epilogue at the same time.

[Volgia]

No, the Dark Souls analogy was brought up, because it's notorious for being harder than most games, and comes with the usual "git gud" mentality. That's why it was brought up. And again, I don't care. I don't play games to "git gud". I improve at a game passively, over time, by playing it, for as long as I find it entertaining. I've no interest in online bravado and flexing. If people enjoy Dark Souls, they can play Dark Souls, if people enjoy hardcore raiding, they can do hardcore raiding.


So little of it? Twelve Savages per expansion, Eight Extremes per expansion, Ultimates, of which Endwalker has two, and Dawntrail already has one and it's only patch 7.1 (we're likely to get another), and a Chaotic Alliance Raid. There's nothing little about the amount of high-end raids.

I appreciate that you enjoy high-end raiding, but you already got two extremes, one ultimate, four savages. Without SE providing more resources to the team to add more content overall (it would be great if they did!), would it have really hurt you, if they released the next casual piece of content before releasing Chaotic? Who's really being unfair here?

All I've had since finishing DT MSQ is one dungeon, and time gated beast tribes. They couldn't even release both the crafting and combat role quest epilogue at the same time.

Sorry but for every piece of content, except for Ultimate and recently Chaotic, you have a NORMAL regular easy version. We have "Three extremes already", but you have three normal DT trials. We have "12 savages", but you have 12 normal raids. Even Criterion and it's savage counterpart has this. So hardcore people only get 1 to 2 pieces of content exclusively for them an EXPANSION.

Where as the easy content you will get 4 more dungeons, and for the non combat stuff you get 3 different tribe quests, custom deliveries, a new bozja like zone, cosmic exploration, PVP, crafting/gathering updates and rewards. The content is still 80/20 between raiders and non raiders.

[Kaurhz]

Sorry but for every piece of content, except for Ultimate and recently Chaotic, you have a NORMAL regular easy version. We have "Three extremes already", but you have three normal DT trials. We have "12 savages", but you have 12 normal raids. Even Criterion and it's savage counterpart has this. So hardcore people only get 1 to 2 pieces of content exclusively for them an EXPANSION.

Where as the easy content you will get 4 more dungeons, and for the non combat stuff you get 3 different tribe quests, custom deliveries, a new bozja like zone, cosmic exploration, PVP, crafting/gathering updates and rewards. The content is till 80/20 between raiders and non raiders.

The problem is, is that the replay value between both pieces of content are not nearly the same. Like, you can't really sit there with a straight face for example and say Normal mode MSQ trials offer the same replay value and longevity as an Extreme, which has many people replaying that a great deal of times times for a mount, or more if they are unlucky and don't want to wait 4 months. Same thing with Normal raids, the gear is invalidated the same second it releases. Why do you have weekly gated normal mode gear with equivalent item level to crafted DoW/M gear which is significantly easier to obtain. Same thing with Alliance Raid and augmented crafted.

You can say they get a few pieces of content 'exclusive' to them, but really that's not even the point. The replay and longevity value of the overlapping content is significantly different. In the same vein that releasing casual content like large-scale raids benefits a lot more players than just casual folk. It still has several pieces of content behind it which are pretty good incentive to anyone seeking a challenge.

It's 50-50, in the grand scheme of things, and ultimately they have a bad content pipeline. Now, I don't know exactly whether you're defending that pipeline or just replying to OP, but it's absolutely absurd for both casual players and raiders alike.

[Carighan]

You can say they get a few pieces of content 'exclusive' to them, but really that's not even the point. The replay and longevity value of the overlapping content is significantly different. In the same vein that releasing casual content like large-scale raids benefits a lot more players than just casual folk. It still has several pieces of content behind it which are pretty good incentive to anyone seeking a challenge.

So erm... I dread to ask, but what would, in your opinion, add "longevity" to normal raids?

[Kaurhz]

So erm... I dread to ask, but what would, in your opinion, add "longevity" to normal raids?

Well for starters the gear not being near enough immediately invalidated by crafted gear would be a pretty good start. Why am I going to do a Normal Mode raid more than once if crafted is of the same Item Level and substantially easier to obtain? The gear expense is roulette Gil. For me personally I can fully outfit a class before I've even finished doing a weekly reclear, so why would I bother? Now, if normal raid gear was +10 of it (so equivalent to non-augment Tomestone), then the incentive to actually rerun it would be there. Same thing with Alliance Raid gear, that should be equivalent to actual raid and augmented tomestone.

[Gurgeh]

Well for starters the gear not being near enough immediately invalidated by crafted gear would be a pretty good start. Why am I going to do a Normal Mode raid more than once if crafted is of the same Item Level and substantially easier to obtain? The gear expense is roulette Gil. For me personally I can fully outfit a class before I've even finished doing a weekly reclear, so why would I bother? Now, if normal raid gear was +10 of it (so equivalent to non-augment Tomestone), then the incentive to actually rerun it would be there. Same thing with Alliance Raid gear, that should be equivalent to actual raid and augmented tomestone.

Agreed,
There are 1,000 awesome things that you could give crafters to do that would still sell like hotcakes.
In fact no infinite!
Why do they have to 'tie' craftining into the battle content gear.
Because the crafting really is essential to savage at the end of the day.
Heck they could allow crafters to craft gear upgrade materials that allow dieing of gear.
There are even other crafted upgrade materials you could let crafters make that would mean crafting and scalpers are no longer an obstace to gearing, but rather the 'ulimate' requirement to gearing.
Give the crafters something that is the best and the essense of the the current expansion.
There are other options I haven't imagined, but the opportunities are endless.
I ran the normal loads. (I couldn't afford crafted gear and all the melds to make it worthwhile.)
This is software, nothing is set in stone, things can change.
You open up the path to higher end content, and just 'enjoying' crafting at your own pace.

[Evergrey]

Well for starters the gear not being near enough immediately invalidated by crafted gear would be a pretty good start. Why am I going to do a Normal Mode raid more than once if crafted is of the same Item Level and substantially easier to obtain? The gear expense is roulette Gil. For me personally I can fully outfit a class before I've even finished doing a weekly reclear, so why would I bother? Now, if normal raid gear was +10 of it (so equivalent to non-augment Tomestone), then the incentive to actually rerun it would be there. Same thing with Alliance Raid gear, that should be equivalent to actual raid and augmented tomestone.

Personally I don't buy crafted gear because I see no reason as to why I need BiS/high end gear when I am not planning on raiding. It's literally not needed for non-raiders.
I play the normal raids for the gear because I don't have to waste gil on it and I think it's more fun to play than simply craft/buy something from a menu and then have nothing to do strive for/keep me occupied, again.

Getting crafted gear designed for entry-raid levels and not raid is like buying a high spec PC to play 10 year old games.
You might find personal satisfaction of having "great" gear but it's not anywhere needed for the non-raiding content.

[Volgia]

The problem is, is that the replay value between both pieces of content are not nearly the same. Like, you can't really sit there with a straight face for example and say Normal mode MSQ trials offer the same replay value and longevity as an Extreme, which has many people replaying that a great deal of times times for a mount, or more if they are unlucky and don't want to wait 4 months. Same thing with Normal raids, the gear is invalidated the same second it releases. Why do you have weekly gated normal mode gear with equivalent item level to crafted DoW/M gear which is significantly easier to obtain. Same thing with Alliance Raid and augmented crafted.

You can say they get a few pieces of content 'exclusive' to them, but really that's not even the point. The replay and longevity value of the overlapping content is significantly different. In the same vein that releasing casual content like large-scale raids benefits a lot more players than just casual folk. It still has several pieces of content behind it which are pretty good incentive to anyone seeking a challenge.

It's 50-50, in the grand scheme of things, and ultimately they have a bad content pipeline. Now, I don't know exactly whether you're defending that pipeline or just replying to OP, but it's absolutely absurd for both casual players and raiders alike.

I mean the fact that the normal easy stuff they keep releasing is bad has nothing to do with raiding. That's a separate problem we're discussing here, here we're discussing on whenever casual people are "left with the crumbs" which is not true, and i'll try and explain it responding to Ezraa here:

Snip

Here's where the hardcore - casual dichotomy falls apart. Because raiding content is made to last because it's challenging, but normal content isn't made for people who want to endlessly spend time in FFXIV, It's literally made for people who play this game CASUALLY. As in once or twice a week.

You exhausting every single piece of content from Golden Saucer to Blue Mage to Eureka, are not playing this game casually. Hell, you're more hardcore than I am.

[Erzaa]

Sorry but for every piece of content, except for Ultimate and recently Chaotic, you have a NORMAL regular easy version. We have "Three extremes already", but you have three normal DT trials. We have "12 savages", but you have 12 normal raids. Even Criterion and it's savage counterpart has this. So hardcore people only get 1 to 2 pieces of content exclusively for them an EXPANSION.

Where as the easy content you will get 4 more dungeons, and for the non combat stuff you get 3 different tribe quests, custom deliveries, a new bozja like zone, cosmic exploration, PVP, crafting/gathering updates and rewards. The content is still 80/20 between raiders and non raiders.

Excuse me? May I ask how often you repeat the Normal mode Trials and Dungeon and for what reason? Outside of Roulette, that is. And let's assume you get them frequently enough while leveling all jobs to 100, once you've maxed out all your jobs, what do you do then? And what rewards do you receive from repeating said content?

Alas, we repeat the single Alliance Raid once a week, and that's only if we even care to get a full gear set, maybe... Likely going to quit after rolling 3 on the minion for the upteenth time?

Now let's consider you're a hardcore raider, I'll assume you raid with a static or PF? There's a certain amount of repetition you need to perform in order to clear and then continue on to receive all rewards? Perhaps you're in it for the mount at the end? Repeat until you get lucky or collect enough tomes to buy the EX mount? Repeat again until everyone in your group has received all the rewards?

It's not even a close equivalency and you know that. We do a Normal Trial and Dungeon once to progress the MSQ and then it's just fodder for the DF. It's not something anyone works toward over a period of time. We repeat the Alliance Raid once a week for maybe two to three times? Five if you get really unlucky with your gear drop? And then what? Sit around and twiddle our thumbs?