Dawntrail’s Narrative Missteps: Why Natsuko Ishikawa’s Touch Is Sorely Missed

[grinkdaboy]

i can handle not being the focus of the story but what i don't like is essentially how we are treated in dt. it felt like outside of a few times that my wol was being spoken *at* rather than spoken *to*. i had no investment in what was going on and all around felt like i was just here because i was asked nicely to be there and no other reason. i also had the strong feeling that there were numerous rewrites of the story. like zoraal ja's characterization and motivation

[ScartPearl]

We went from being the Warrior of Light to the Warrior who likes to watch in many of the cut scenes. Hell, in one of them what's his face even acknowledges that we are a walking nodding force of nature. And if our presence was meant to be as some kind of mentor for Wuk, then that was garbled in the story line of her own "personal growth".

I’ll be honest, I don’t mind not being the center of attention, but things need to be justified. For better or worse, the WoL defeated the greatest threat in the universe single-handedly. There are certain situations where it doesn’t make sense for the WoL to just stand by and watch—it goes against their very nature.

What really bothered me, though, was the lack of character development with Wuk Lamat. She’s described as a princess who’s never left Tuliyollal, to the point that she doesn’t even know her own people. And yet, the way they handled her "growth" was frustratingly shallow—she gets everything handed to her on a silver platter, without struggle, without learning that failure is an essential part of growth.

She needed to fail. Because it’s through failure that we learn and grow, but instead, she breezed through every challenge, and in some cases, the solutions were outright ridiculous. It felt like she was succeeding just because the story needed her to, not because she earned it.

A perfect example of this is the final fight with Sphene. What irritated me wasn’t that someone broke the barrier and joined the fight—it was who broke it. Are you seriously telling me that Wuk Lamat is stronger or more capable than G’raha Tia, who has all the knowledge of the Crystal Exarch? That makes no sense. G’raha is incredibly powerful and intelligent, and it’s completely unrealistic to portray her as having the strength or knowledge to surpass him, especially given how immature she still was at that point.

[Voidmage]

The main way it can cause a game to fail is if it's unreasonable and shows no empathy towards the developers, because that can affect their motivation or desire to work there (this is pretty obvious, but Yoshi-P has said this as well).

Which is exactly why, when giving criticism, I advocate for also saying what they did well or acknowledging their hurdles and the fact that they are trying to cater to lots of different people whom all have contrasting points of view.

And for the same reason, it should be constructive. If they can't do anything with the information or it's not actually saying what they should do instead, then it's not a very useful criticism.

Another reason people may be positive is simply because it is a perspective ie. a glass half-full vs glass half-empty thing. It's the same glass, with the same amount of contents, but one views it positively and the other negatively.

The thing is... the feedback used to be more constructive and positive in the past and yes even this forum here was once more positive.
People have just given up or became frustrated because they felt like they weren't listened to anyway.

In Shb Yoshida didn't respond to the SMN feedback in any form.
In EW Yoshida didn't respond to the feedback of content being to easy and there being not enough rewards (it was all in an interview later and took more or less Zepla ripping them a new one to acknowledge it).
In DT instead of acknowleding the negative MSQ feedback he dismissed it as "we expected negative feedback because it's a new start" while the internet was full of the WHY the story was not good recieved. And even if not... saying that "we knew it would be disliked by a good chunk of players but didn't care" is not a good response.
It took a massive BLM outcry and drop in it's players for them to roll back some changes and even then they didn't acknowledge any fault on their part.
And it still continues.
No response to the return of old pvp rewards, no clear response to the why field content is backloaded or even an acknowledgment to there being no content for nonraiders right now.
The Wuk Lamat response was pure gaslighting and so on.

I agree that the feedback should be constructive and all but we had all that. Entire threads here and reddit posts and youtube videos to the WHY the DT MSQ was bad (even though some here will still pretend that they have never seen constructive feedback to that) all to just be... brushed aside.
I can totally understand why some players are just at their limit to what they are able to tolerate and go into a sharper tone, myself included.

The biggest problem right now is te absolute non existence of communication from the devs for anything.
The only times we get explainations to the why is in some obscure interview years later (like with the EW content) and some of them only in japanese. Did you know Yoshida was online new year to answer questions from the japanese players where he confirmed that they settled on what to do after lvl 100? Why wasn't this a bigger news?

If they just explained more decisions and how they think I guess then we would see far more open minded people and a less aggressive tone towards them.

[Eyrilona]

The biggest problem right now is te absolute non existence of communication from the devs for anything.
The only times we get explainations to the why is in some obscure interview years later (like with the EW content) and some of them only in japanese. Did you know Yoshida was online new year to answer questions from the japanese players where he confirmed that they settled on what to do after lvl 100? Why wasn't this a bigger news?

Through the unlikeliest of channels, I actually did hear he had done that. Apparently he told the JP audience during the questions and answers session that they were working on an exciting new Deep Dungeon for 8.0. Please look forward to it.

[TaleraRistain]

There are certain situations where it doesn’t make sense for the WoL to just stand by and watch—it goes against their very nature.

I wanted to scream at my screen during a certain throne room scene. The WoL would not just STAND THERE while someone is being killed. And some lame line about honor is not going to change that.

[ScartPearl]

I wanted to scream at my screen during a certain throne room scene. The WoL would not just STAND THERE while someone is being killed. And some lame line about honor is not going to change that.

YES, exactly! I wanted to scream too! The WoL has been through so much, fought gods, and saved entire worlds—there’s just no way they’d stand there and let that happen. That line about "honor" was such a weak excuse, it made my blood boil. It completely goes against everything the WoL stands for! That scene was so out of character, I couldn’t believe what I was seeing.

I mean, it's obvious they wanted to kill that character, but they could have written it in a much smarter way! That scene felt just plain stupid. I think even those who liked the expansion have to admit that it makes absolutely no sense.

[Kennar]

I haven't seen any of that here yet. The vast majority of criticisms of DT here are knee-jerk and superficial, even among those who write at length on the topic.

Instead of simply telling us that we're wrong, tell us why we're wrong. Convince me that Wuk Lamat and Zoraal Ja are actually deep, complex characters. Explain to me how the plot is not full of holes and built on a flimsy foundation of convenience and happenstance. Give me your best sales pitch that having action take place in a cutscene instead of being actual gameplay is a good design choice. Counter the myriad complaints that we have all leveled against this game with something more than "It's a new story, be patient," or, "It's always been this way, stop complaining." I genuinely want to hear your best arguments as to why DT isn't complete mess.

[Jeeqbit]

the feedback used to be more constructive and positive in the past and yes even this forum here was once more positive.

I wonder when. It wasn't in Stormblood. Even then I was almost the only positive person here and arguing in the other forums was an even worse echo chamber than here because of there being less people with less varied perspectives.

In Shb Yoshida didn't respond to the SMN feedback in any form.

Because it was nonsense? The crux of the argument was that it was "one button" which isn't actually true. I remember seeing an objective perspective from a WoW raider that came to play FFXIV and tried out Summoner and they disagreed with what everyone had said about it being simple and 1 button.

It was made into a real summoner which had been requested for years. It got a big pop in the job action trailer. It was a polarizing change, because SMN mains didn't like it, but a lot of players started playing it due to it since there were Summoners everywhere suddenly.

In EW Yoshida didn't respond to the feedback of content being to easy

It was rather late but he did respond to it shortly before Dawntrail release and said Dawntrail would focus on changing the content to have fresh mechanic ideas like the ghost mechanics in Stayborough. He said he wanted to reduce stress but regretted doing this because if you remove all the stress then you remove all the fun, so Dawntrail is where he wants to address this issue.

and there being not enough rewards

They got the message about that pretty quick actually because it was being acknowledged in interviews for ages. Then they committed to increasing the amount of rewards developed in Dawntrail.

(it was all in an interview later and took more or less Zepla ripping them a new one to acknowledge it)

That was about the Field Operation but I agree that it took Zepla bringing it up for them to commit to another Field Operation.

It took a massive BLM outcry and drop in it's players for them to roll back some changes and even then they didn't acknowledge any fault on their part.

What did they roll back? Wasn't aware they changed things back to before Dawntrail.

no clear response to the why field content is backloaded or even an acknowledgment to there being no content for nonraiders right now.

They do not develop them on release because their focus is on the MSQ, which is their absolute priority over all else for release. Every time an expansion has been releasing they've commented how busy they all are finishing it in time for the release date.

They could try developing one prior to getting busy with the expansion though, since they released Hydatos in 4.55 (which would have been in testing for months realistically), so all they would have to do is repeat that development schedule then delay it until the expansion release.

The biggest problem right now is te absolute non existence of communication from the devs for anything.

From their perspective, the live letters are communication. They wanted to get out and meet players in real life again, which they couldn't for several years obviously, but they went to loads of events to meet players since Dawntrail which is good, because they can say things in person.

Did you know Yoshida was online new year to answer questions from the japanese players where he confirmed that they settled on what to do after lvl 100? Why wasn't this a bigger news?

I didn't know, but usually saying things in an interview is a precursor to later announcing it somewhere (such as a live letter or keynote). I do know that he said in the media tour they had been floating ideas such as Skill Trees, Talents and Ability Points but at that time, they were undecided.

If they just explained more decisions and how they think I guess then we would see far more open minded people and a less aggressive tone towards them.

We wouldn't, because not everyone will see these "explanations". That's actually a basic thing about PR. Not everyone will see the PR so you just have to deal with uninformed criticisms.

[Voidmage]

I wonder when. It wasn't in Stormblood. Even then I was almost the only positive person here and arguing in the other forums was an even worse echo chamber than here because of there being less people with less varied perspectives.

Yes it was Stormblood and no you weren't. I may have not posted back then but I did read the forum.
I respect you for staying positive and your thought through responses (and believe me I enjoy reading your side) but just compare this https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ed-suggestions with replies to Yoshida interviews now.
There is far more vitrol today.
I am not saying the forums back then weren't negative but that they were far less than today.

Because it was nonsense? The crux of the argument was that it was "one button" which isn't actually true. I remember seeing an objective perspective from a WoW raider that came to play FFXIV and tried out Summoner and they disagreed with what everyone had said about it being simple and 1 button.
It was made into a real summoner which had been requested for years. It got a big pop in the job action trailer. It was a polarizing change, because SMN mains didn't like it, but a lot of players started playing it due to it since there were Summoners everywhere suddenly.

They took a job that had quite a number of mains and completely changed it from the most complex caster to the least complex. That wasn't nonsense for it's players back then.
What was requested wasn't "I want as less complexity as possible" but "I want more summoner feel and more egis".
Nevertheless and no matter how you think about the job. They did an abyssmal job in explaining the change or responding to the feedback of former mains of the job.
Even if it was nonsense. They should have still responded to the players.

It was rather late but he did respond to it shortly before Dawntrail release and said Dawntrail would focus on changing the content to have fresh mechanic ideas like the ghost mechanics in Stayborough. He said he wanted to reduce stress but regretted doing this because if you remove all the stress then you remove all the fun, so Dawntrail is where he wants to address this issue.

That's what I am saying. The response came far too late. We are talking about what 2,5 years of nothing being said about it and only waking up when they needed hype for the new expansion?

They got the message about that pretty quick actually because it was being acknowledged in interviews for ages. Then they committed to increasing the amount of rewards developed in Dawntrail.

Same as above. The acknowledgement came far too late and only in interviews instead of the numerous letters from the producer while EW was actual and people were complaining.

What did they roll back? Wasn't aware they changed things back to before Dawntrail.

I am not talking about before DT.
Ice Paradox is one example of being rolled back and the umbral ice change is an example of them changing an unplayable state.

They do not develop them on release because their focus is on the MSQ, which is their absolute priority over all else for release. Every time an expansion has been releasing they've commented how busy they all are finishing it in time for the release date.
They could try developing one prior to getting busy with the expansion though, since they released Hydatos in 4.55 (which would have been in testing for months realistically), so all they would have to do is repeat that development schedule then delay it until the expansion release.

That is your interpretation and the theory we all have but they didn't say it really.
They manage to develop four savage fights as well as an ultimate to release shortly after the expansion launch so the first zone of a field exploration should also be possible.
Again though, no open communication right now for example besides even content creators asking what they are thinking.
I am not talking about time shedules or how hard things are for them but about keeping players up to date and responding to feedback.
I may sound harsh but...
If they are unable to present more than the bare minimum for a selled product than that is their problem and not ours and they either have not enough manpower or their entire project planning is a dumbster fire.
Fixing that is Yoshidas job though.
Is it hard to get SE to give more money or to hire new people? Of course, a nightmare even probably.
But that's why he get's all the money for in his position.
I also said in the past. If the problem with new people is that they need to know japanese than they need to drop that.
We have 2025 now. No reason to not use english or at least have translators.

From their perspective, the live letters are communication. They wanted to get out and meet players in real life again, which they couldn't for several years obviously, but they went to loads of events to meet players since Dawntrail which is good, because they can say things in person.

Good for them to thinking that. But a power point presentation that only shows planned things is not communication.
That would be having a short q&a at the end of the live letter with the most asked questions or feedback.
Instead we get more information out of interviews instead of those live letters.

I didn't know, but usually saying things in an interview is a precursor to later announcing it somewhere (such as a live letter or keynote). I do know that he said in the media tour they had been floating ideas such as Skill Trees, Talents and Ability Points but at that time, they were undecided.

My point is more that he managed to do a q&a with the japanese playerbase but the rest of the world is ignored because our community representives are a rarer sight in the game than Xenos without his beard.
Interviews are fine and cool to get additional information but people should have the feeling to be heard and go out of a liveletter thinking "yeah I kinda understand why it is like that".
Instead all we think is "eh... yeah that's the shedule. Nothing new tbh."

We wouldn't, because not everyone will see these "explanations". That's actually a basic thing about PR. Not everyone will see the PR so you just have to deal with uninformed criticisms.

Yes? But that doesn't change them doing better and saying "well there will always be people who don't know" is moving the goalpost.

Edit:
Jesus I won't do that again.
This forum is a nightmare in posting like this.

[Jeeqbit]

We are talking about what 2,5 years of nothing being said about it and only waking up when they needed hype for the new expansion?

The truth is, they've always done this. I first realized this was how they do things when Stormblood was coming out:

• They had ignored the fact Bards abandoned their job or quit the game over cast times being added for 2 years, then suddenly advertised it would be reverted in Stormblood.
• They had ignored how clunky and abandoned the cross-class system was for 2 years then suddenly said it would be addressed in Stormblood.
• They had ignored constant complaints about RNG mitigation (Parry) then suddenly announced it would be replaced with Tenacity in Stormblood so that you at least know it will always reduce the damage of a tank buster.

After that it became apparent this is how they do it. If there is a problem, they will probably address it all the way at the next expansion.

It would be ideal if issues were addressed faster though.