Chaotic existing silenced all the complaints about PCT being op

[Azurarok]

Fair enough. But one might also ask why an Ultimate, of all the difficulty levels, features so much "stand around doing nothing" time. Why, in this one case, does the job get all the blame and not the content design, or some mix of the two? Neither exists in a vacuum.

I figure it's because forcing people to not just muscle memory perform their job and have to think about when to pool and use resources adds to the difficulty. Perhaps they could increase those in Savage, though.

[Aysin]

How else are you meant to de-emphasise a massive burster than forcibly misalign the burst window

Like is BLM actually OP but FRU “hides” it because it emphasises the burst window?

There are no forcibly misaligned moments in chaotic, there is a lack of care in coordination because the fight does not require any level of optimization. Due to this lack of care, synergy-based jobs do not show their strength as well as they normally do. There is a perk to holding burst for 30 seconds for damage amp window but that's it. The fight just so happens to align to a BLM 2nd charge of leylines so they benefit a bit more than others in a default state, but other jobs can do things like holding opener to 30 seconds in order to compensate. No job is suffering by this, in fact most benefit. As mentioned, looking at the highest statistics you can start seeing these results show.

Your argumentation feels disingenuous because you ignored 80% of what I said and took the part you argued for and completely rewrote it to make a "well if" scenario that had nothing to do with what I said, because there was no mention of burst vs sustained damage profiles. I put an intentional emphasis on synergy and coordination because that is how rDPS jobs show their strength. These things, currently not found, or concerned about in a more casual 24man experience, which is fine.

If we're asking why PCT is still OP it would be because even under this uncoordinated and chaotic scenario the class remains extremely competitive and then has it's insane stand out moment in ultimates, which I think we can agree the class is currently unparalleled in and it is not even close. And for Savage the class remains both on the high end of competitiveness or even on top in some situations vs other classes. In short, there is no downside to playing this job, essentially having no drawbacks (if you exclude the extremely minor uncoordinated scenarios). It's got damage, it's got defensives, it's easier to play than its competitor slot BLM. It. Is. OP.

[Supersnow845]

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You said that chaotic “hides” how OP PCT is because it doesn’t require the type of coordination to actually align burst windows. However burst windows naturally align by their cooldowns. It’s the players individual choice to misalign their CD’s because it benefits their personal DPS more. Some hold in particular situations and others don’t because certain parts of the fight are hostile to (particularly) PCT and BLM’s more stationary burst phases. You can see this that even in coordinated groups with 24 high parses PCT still isn’t particularly good and not everyone’s burst aligns

PCT is a burster and gets a lot of its damage from stacking damage in a stacked burst window. If the fight isn’t explicitly designed around encouraging you to completely align your bursts that is an example or a fight intentionally biasing those that don’t burst heavily (which is why the two immediately behind NIN are VPR and SAM two jobs that have flatter than average damage profiles) the fact that this applies to all levels of parses even up to the gold parses shows that it’s not just people being lazy it’s the fight doesn’t actually encourage alignment

So again I’ll say if a fight isn’t rewarding coordination of burst then it’s basically an example of a fight that is intentionally hostile to jobs like PCT, what else do you want them to do here. PCT isn’t overpowered here, it’s literally the weakest of the 8 high damage jobs because of the design of this fight

[Aco505]

You said that chaotic “hides” how OP PCT is because it doesn’t require the type of coordination to actually align burst windows. However burst windows naturally align by their cooldowns. It’s the players individual choice to misalign their CD’s because it benefits their personal DPS more. Some hold in particular situations and others don’t because certain parts of the fight are hostile to (particularly) PCT and BLM’s more stationary burst phases. You can see this that even in coordinated groups with 24 high parses PCT still isn’t particularly good and not everyone’s burst aligns

PCT is a burster and gets a lot of its damage from stacking damage in a stacked burst window. If the fight isn’t explicitly designed around encouraging you to completely align your bursts that is an example or a fight intentionally biasing those that don’t burst heavily (which is why the two immediately behind NIN are VPR and SAM two jobs that have flatter than average damage profiles) the fact that this applies to all levels of parses even up to the gold parses shows that it’s not just people being lazy it’s the fight doesn’t actually encourage alignment

So again I’ll say if a fight isn’t rewarding coordination of burst then it’s basically an example of a fight that is intentionally hostile to jobs like PCT, what else do you want them to do here. PCT isn’t overpowered here, it’s literally the weakest of the 8 high damage jobs because of the design of this fight

I wouldn't say the fight is hostile to PCT, it simply requires optimization to take the best out of the job instead of it being free. Most strats split the raid and PCT wants all the buffs and to buff others, too. Requiring to manipulate burst usage to maximize damage is an intrinsic element of any duty. The thing is that most simply don't require it but some do, like Ultimates.

But as 24-people content on an Extreme-level, most parties are not going to bother optimizing and so the results are what they are. You need many iterations of a given strat, including buff usage, to truly know how the buff-dependent jobs fare compared to the non-buffing ones. There's also considerations such as player skill and kill times, since specific kill times might force a given group back to normal timers to avoid losing a use of a burst, for instance.

[Aysin]

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Your logic doesn't make any sense. Because we have the option of delaying burst, that actively detriments PCT? As opposed to ultimates where forced downtime entirely discourages misaligned usage of buffs. You missed my points entirely. In the 24 man you don't have 24 active people entirely coordinated therefore PCT is not "shining as much", the 24 man is not a good representation of balance because of this fact, and therefore hides how OP it is. There is an extremely miniscule amount of people that have a decently coordinated clear and it shows in the absolute max statistics. The argument isn't "PCT is on top of everything" but instead "PCT has little to zero drawbacks and excels in all scenarios". There is possible 1 scenario, where you might be in the tiles portion of the fight as PCT where you don't get near complete value from your raid buff, in which you can argue may be a detriment, but alas other buff classes suffer this also, and is not unique to PCT. The fight does not cater to any style of damage profiles but provides a choice in when to execute the damage for the most gain, which obviously the majority are not doing because it is not needed. Also, SAM is one of the burstiest classes in the game, so I don't know how you claim it has a flat damage profile. This also means execution on the damage amp window will benefit this class most especially since it does not rely on others for its complete representation of damage.

This is the second time you ignored my points and made a discussion completely unrelated to what I said, so apologies if I won't be responding to you going forward if I feel like you are not being genuine in the response because it feels like you're arguing for arguments sake.

[Supersnow845]

Your logic doesn't make any sense. Because we have the option of delaying burst, that actively detriments PCT? As opposed to ultimates where forced downtime entirely discourages misaligned usage of buffs. You missed my points entirely. In the 24 man you don't have 24 active people entirely coordinated therefore PCT is not "shining as much", the 24 man is not a good representation of balance because of this fact, and therefore hides how OP it is. There is an extremely miniscule amount of people that have a decently coordinated clear and it shows in the absolute max statistics. The argument isn't "PCT is on top of everything" but instead "PCT has little to zero drawbacks and excels in all scenarios". There is possible 1 scenario, where you might be in the tiles portion of the fight as PCT where you don't get near complete value from your raid buff, in which you can argue may be a detriment, but alas other buff classes suffer this also, and is not unique to PCT. The fight does not cater to any style of damage profiles but provides a choice in when to execute the damage for the most gain, which obviously the majority are not doing because it is not needed. Also, SAM is one of the burstiest classes in the game, so I don't know how you claim it has a flat damage profile. This also means execution on the damage amp window will benefit this class most especially since it does not rely on others for its complete representation of damage.

This is the second time you ignored my points and made a discussion completely unrelated to what I said, so apologies if I won't be responding to you going forward if I feel like you are not being genuine in the response because it feels like you're arguing for arguments sake.

If your definition of “OP” is “excels in all scenarios with little to no drawbacks” then that definition could apply to any melee as they also have no scenarios with drawbacks that meaningfully affect their damage

This is the core of my problem with arguments like this, Is you are basically just taking the “melee and damage casters are always the best 8 DPS in every fight” and acting like that makes PCT itself OP

PCT is OP in ultimate, everywhere else it sits with the melees which is where they design it to be. Twisting this into a weird it’s OP everywhere; especially CAR where even at max with buff coordination PCT still isn’t doing particularly well amongst the melees; is just strange

CAR isn’t hiding how OP PCT is, it’s just a fight that’s not particularly conducive to PCT’s gameplay design (which again even at max PCT isn’t performing terribly well). Unless you wish to argue every fight that doesn’t pander specifically to a jobs unique unique burst profile is “masking how OP it is”

[Aysin]

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I've explained before why I consider PCT OP but for the sake of a meaningful discussion let's reiterate my points and break it down further.

You yourself say it is within melee territory in CAR, which you consider content not conducive to their play style - they sit low to middle of the pack of melee, but no melee aside from NIN (due to exception on trick) is gaping damage from others so I consider this very competitive as a DPS. A good choice, if you will and not as you put it "isn’t doing particularly well".

They excel in savage, sitting on top or 2nd and therefore extremely competitive as a DPS. one of the best of choices.

They are overwhelmingly strong in Ultimate and completely gap every job. Considering this is the only meaningful DPS check in the current content not bringing PCT is considered bad. The best choice.

In legacy 4 man savage dungeons it is the strongest, BLM is 2nd strongest as they are privileged with being ranged. We can theoretically apply this to future 4 man and see that there is content where the other 2 casters and Melees truly suffer however PCT does not. In the same vein we saw PCT decimating TOP leading to the known fact that it will be as strong in FRU we can apply the same logic here. The best choice.

Common opinion is the job is easy, and accessible vs it's counterpart. Personally, I find both easy, but the average player does have an easier time picking PCT up and playing at the better levels. In the same way SMN was still used last expansion since it brought decent damage, but its accessibility was its best attribute and ditto RDM for Stormblood. PCT ease can be applied to all melees and BLM in this case. We'll call this "progression viable". one of the best choices, and far better than its counterpart BLM but not the other 2 casters for Rez and ease of use. Although I'd argue the value is almost the same since you can offset hard rez with the damage difference PCT provides over rezzers.

The cherry on top is it provides some defensive utility. Which people say is barely anything, but as a healer this expac I find the extra buffer of shield a pleasant safety net especially in prog, when covering for a missing body in a stack for example. Something only 1 other melee can provide.

The class isn't bad in CAR simply because it's ever so slightly behind the pack of melees in terms of damage. I'd consider the class bad competitively if all other melee and BLM complete gap it's damage, which is not the case.

So, in almost all cases it's one of the best choices if not the best for damage, it's easy to play, and provides defensives to boot. This is why I consider it OP.

[Supersnow845]

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But that’s what I’m saying by your own logic functionally every melee and BLM is also “OP”, in particular MNK and RPR which provide strong healing utility alongside their damage.

Like all the high damage classes compete in high damage. Like applying “competitive in CAR and savage OP in ultimate” NIN is exactly the same “competitive in savage and ultimate OP in CAR”, DRG isn’t particularly OP in any content but is near the top in all three.

Simply being competitive with the others and strong in one particular piece of content doesn’t make a class OP overall because it’s so broad as to be functionally useless. Difficultly is in the the eye of the beholder so is hard to measure though I would say there is few classes that are actually hard. As someone who mostly plays SCH the shield just kinda feels whatever but I’ll allow its stronger than its competition

[Aysin]

But that’s what I’m saying by your own logic functionally every melee and BLM is also “OP”, in particular MNK and RPR which provide strong healing utility alongside their damage.

Like all the high damage classes compete in high damage. Like applying “competitive in CAR and savage OP in ultimate” NIN is exactly the same “competitive in savage and ultimate OP in CAR”, DRG isn’t particularly OP in any content but is near the top in all three.

Simply being competitive with the others and strong in one particular piece of content doesn’t make a class OP overall because it’s so broad as to be functionally useless. Difficultly is in the the eye of the beholder so is hard to measure though I would say there is few classes that are actually hard. As someone who mostly plays SCH the shield just kinda feels whatever but I’ll allow its stronger than its competition

My own logic doesn't dictate all high damage dealers are OP by default. Let's breakdown why.

Firstly, when we say difficulty of class, this is not a personal preference, this is a community sentiment. If the majority think the class is easier to play than the other, that is objectively true, and the people who think otherwise are an exception. Not to say they are wrong because people all work and think differently. If the stats show the sky is blue, just because someone who is colorblind can't see it does not make it false. PCT is one of the more accessible classes.

If PCT did not have 2 instances of damage checks that mattered (i.e content which requires a decent level of play) where it overwhelmingly wins out in damage performance, then it would be far more balanced. Something no other job does. And then on top, it brings its ease of use, its utility, its ranged in the case of 4 man.

Now let's talk about NIN and the alliance raid. This is not content devs ever specified around balancing this game in, and therefore NIN in this case, does not present a viable indication of imbalance. Let's leave chaotic as it is in my opinion, it is more fun when things are weird but there is not damage checks.

So that leaves us with your last point which is all other damage dealers are competitive and some bring something. If it were more the case that PCT excelled only in downtime, or only in 2 target then we'd have more grounds for debate however it dominates down time something NIN and SAM use to excel at, it dominates 2 target which is something DRG and now VPR would have excelled at. Which I'd argue would have been a nice difference between the classes but PCT simply is better.

PCT does not have a "Niche strength". It has a "Maybe not as good" moment in content that balance shouldn't be considered for.

[Carighan]

Fair enough. But one might also ask why an Ultimate, of all the difficulty levels, features so much "stand around doing nothing" time. Why, in this one case, does the job get all the blame and not the content design, or some mix of the two? Neither exists in a vacuum.

Yeah although I'd rather not restrict fight design too much.

Again I'd rather accept sweeping imbalances before fights become too samey.

The problem is that right now FFXIV kinda gets the worst of all worlds:

* Jobs are incredibly homogenized, casters being more or less the only exception.
* However, those are numerically very badly balanced in the high high end content.
* At the same time, fights have become quite predictable and "samey", lacking truly unique stuff. Although I will say, our new 24man is a ray of hope in this regard, being quite, well, chaotic. But we have no fights where we have to heal the boss to 100% to win, we have only a handful of fights where we fight groups/armies instead of a single boss, we get very few randomized fights, and the individual abilities are so rote that we have our own vernacular for them. Which is just wild, comparing other MMORPGs.

Against that background I don't see why Picto should not just have all their potencies cut by ~8%. It's still an incredibly easy to play job owing to its huge flexibility, self-shield, movement tool and good access to instant casts. Which is positive, don't get me wrong, it's what makes the job amazing to play. But it also stands to reason that its output should be strictly inferior to more complex jobs, which is just about all of them. Would that always be balanced and "fair"? No of course not. And if our fight design were more interesting, we would struggle to even judge that "unfairness". Sadly we don't have that, but that should not preclude some numerical balancing, either.