Why pvp is succesful and pve is getting stale

[Connor]

If they put the same level of care into making jobs interesting as they did in PvP, we’d be living in an FFXIV utopia. It’d be much better than it is now at least…

They need to change something otherwise the only thing we can ever look forward to in future is more 120s cool-down finisher abilities ( vomits )

[Valence]

Fully agree with that sentiment, and good write up overall! Though I recon there are enough people that also like the on rails approach of the fights, especially now after years of this being "the way" FFXIV combat works. (Perhaps in the future, there is Savage for the tried raidplan approach, and, say, Criterion for a more organic design, so players can chose what kind of endgame they prefer?)

Makes me wonder how the new battle content approach in 7.2 is supposed to look, really.

I'll chalk it up to an apparent incompatibility of tastes. But in appearance because let's remember that the game didn't use to be like that on every facet of pve and it just got progressively removed in favor of one side only (DDR on rails). The script has always been there, but the randomness, little chaotic rng, mechanics with wider or multiple solutions promoting creativity rather than punishing it, and a battle system / jobs more fleshed out so that it was not all just about executing a script, this was a part of the game too. Do I want more than just this? Sure, but that's personal taste. Let's just not pretend that the game has always been fully scripted DDR like it is today because it is just not true.

I believe there is a healthy room to accommodate most people like we used to. And of course, having different types of contents could be another solution, although a costly one. I'd wish for criterion to be something like you say, but it is actually the most brutal example to date of the current full DDR system, where everybody can raise (for a reason), where classes and jobs are reduced to even less than in 8 man raids, with less damage, mitigation, and full steam ahead on encounter mechanics galore. Even the base Variant mode is painfully role agnostic with role actions to make you able to solo it. Not saying that role agnosticism is bad actually (it works in pvp right now), but role agnosticism with no class flavour and zero battle system depth is a surefire way to show how dull everything can be.

Game actually needs more than dungeons and raids, trails are actually raids but easier which is less and less creativity.

What I suggest is to lookup to what game modes that is popular and fun for people who likes RPG games,

Take for example battle royal, I know it is a pvp mode but you can make it non PvP that is competitive and fun to play.


What also FFXIV needs is dungeon style that is similar to games like dark and darker.. deep dungeons isn't close to it. Each time you queue in should feel like another adventure.

In conclusion:
The game require to be flexible and change the formula and things should be functionally different each time you queue for encounter.

Thank you

On battle royal modes I do remember the idea of it in pvp with BLU to have been mentioned multiple times (and maybe in PLLs or interviews as well? I don't remember exactly). I do think it could be a genuinely fun mode, but right now it's pve that needs it the most and right now my own answer would tend to go more on the side of rogue lite modes, but better than deep dungeons that removed way too much of the pve system to my taste. If they could manage to make something able to combine both classic pve strengths with the semi rng of rogue lite systems though...? I guess I can dream.

I applaud your willingness to want something better. They could (unlimited resources). But the whole business of how the back end works that can be seen with the use of snapshots etc, I think the fights are the way they are because its 'very' hard, and 'limited' as to what you can do to create complexity, that has a learning/skill/mastery curve, with what the back end can (and can't) do. We already have lots of problems with mechanics that just don't seem to work well with just a mediocre ping or what appears to be the sever<>client not keeping up with each other. (for the starkest example of the limits of the engine I'm thinking of the fall guys events.) The game less about about playing the game you 'see', and but more about getting a "feel" for the second invisible parallel world of snapshots underneath.
I got pretty good at making sure I'm a least good enough for my corpse to make it look like I was where I was supposed to be. I was almost flawless at that. It almost became a minigame with every KO for me. ("Yuz! Nailed it! Not only am I where I needed to be, but I did it just the moment I needed to also die doing it! Too early and I'd still be alive, too late and I wouldn't be positioned 'perfectly' with everyone who's still alive. Howz that for Skillz!) Almost like slide casting, but for precision KOs.
I'm just not convinced that there is 'much' of texture and depth they can achieve with other 'game' styles. Is why so much (everything) is know the mechanic ahead of time, positioning you character ahead of time, wait for the mechanic to resolve (because the clients and servers always need some breathing time to catch up with each other. Quite a lot maybe comparatively speaking?). The back-end engine is what it is, and after a decade, the game we have is the 'emergent' result of that system.
I don't know squat, I'm speculating above. But we all are I think. The future I see for this game, is that it can't go on forever, they will eventually have to bet the house, on XIV v3, crate whole new back ends, and hybird dual client front end that is used when you aetherite to XIV 10.0 (so that they can try and bring their user base over), pray to god they don't lose too many raiders who will be pissed that all that 'exceptional' skill, now counts for not much, and they are playing a 'totally' different game.

Yeah as the diffculty goes up, all that seems to mean, is we are going to pair back the amount of time you have to get into position between mechanics to the minimum our server-client engine can achieve, and we are going to make it harder and harder for you to "work out" where it is you need to get to ahead of time, while all the time making you keep pushing 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-5-1-2-3-64-1-2-3... .

TLDR; I think they can create something of a more organic experience, but with the current engine it will always be too limited and what little is possible will get stale fast, and just wont compare to other games that have come out since. XIV (I gather) is 'very' unique in the feel of its battle. Sort of realtime, sort of.. not. IF they stop being so unique, then they have to start going head to head with others that have that design baked in from concept, without also needed to pander or compromise on any pre-existing preferences that pull in opposite directions.

But absolutely I think it would be great to hear more about this.

Their engine sure has issues and they've been incredibly visible as of late in the 7.1 pvp changes actually. I am painfully aware of it.
But perhaps the game is also trying to constantly increase the pace of everything with the idea of turning it into a full action game. Warcraft has more APM? Let's crank it up here. Was XI such a bad game for having a slower pace overall? Oh but you must understand, one must get on with the times. Was it even so bad in the earlier expansions of XIV? I don't know, people seemed to have enjoyed themselves as well.

Yes, you are.
If you were, why the players do high end content WITH a guide (written from who knows who) under the nose and a premade group?

Go blind, go with a random group and figure out the fight.
What really removed with the feast is the premade pvp group. CC is spicy because there is the hardcore highly skilled pvp player AND sackboy wiith a banana glamour.

Because the content is literally designed for it? Blind runs are fun (debatable with current pve), even going into something new with the strat and guide already laid out can be somewhat, but the fact remains that you'll spend 99% of your time regurgitating the same exact thing again and again and again and again, so it makes perfect sense for people to macdonaldize it to minimize failure and points of friction. And then people complain that XIV has a problem with content shelf life...

On the Feast, Team ranked with rewards stopped being a thing in the early stages of the game after a couple of seasons because of the rampant win trading. Since then premades in the competitive mode have been contained to custom games (and RC events) since forever. I specifically spoke from the bulk of ranked pvp since the dawn of time which is solo ranked, which is not about premades, and which also merged the exact same banana player with the "highly skilled pvp player".

I also suspect you and Gyactus are talking about different games? Gyactus is talking about high end, you are might not be?

I am talking in general about most of the pve content.

[ovIm]

Let's just not pretend that the game has always been fully scripted DDR like it is today because it is just not true.

Oh, don't get me wrong - I am right there with you, especially since I have been with the game since 2.0, have seen that it used to be more, and I am lamenting the state it is in now. If your ideas were to come to pass I'd be super happy.
My worry is that the game has had this "Shadowbringers" kinda design for years now, and a sudden change in design paradigms may also alienate players, which is why something like that may have to be established very carefully.

[Lilapop]

PVP is successful???

[Mr_Gyactus]

Because the content is literally designed for it? Blind runs are fun (debatable with current pve), even going into something new with the strat and guide already laid out can be somewhat, but the fact remains that you'll spend 99% of your time regurgitating the same exact thing again and again and again and again, so it makes perfect sense for people to macdonaldize it to minimize failure and points of friction. And then people complain that XIV has a problem with content shelf life...

FFXIV is a game, and a game by definition has a challenge.
If you bypass the challenge cheating or leaving others solve the problems for you, the game lose an important quality/component of being a game. By definition, an activity without a challenge is a work.

Now, I cannot be a "student" forever. Soon or later I'll graduate (better sooner than later) and I leave the univ... the game.
If you don't feel any challenge anymore and you aren't cheating... good job, you are graduated now, but don't expect a game becoming more challenging with every expansion, because there are a lot of "student" and you cannot cut them out from the content.
If you think about it, the new 24 raid is a good thing. "students" can learn and have a challenge, "graduated" can explain and have a challenge leading a cat herd.

As I (implictly) said before: do not cheat, do not search for shortcut, accept n00bs and do not transform a game in a unpaid job.

[Mawlzy]

Very provocative suggestions, Valence.

The main reason I enjoy(ed) FF14 PvP (in principle; 7.1 has decreased that enjoyment) more than PvE is that the challenge is not centered on increasingly rapid mechanics, memorization, and "learning the dance." PvP is stripped down combat in which the challenges are unpredictable and different every time you go in. In addition to native skill, the primary reason I have no interest in raiding is that it requires memorizing "the answer" to a static problem and then executing it flawlessly. I recognize the skill it requires to do that, and have admiration for high-end raiders who can accomplish it. But as combat design it doesn't interest me at all.

As you know from the PvP boards, I have plenty of gripes about PvP in detail. But combat design which involves solving on the fly strategic and tactical problems which vary every instance appeals to me far more than "rehearsing" the dance over and over again until you put in a perfect performance. The latter is ballroom dancing, the former is boogying around your apartment in your smalls dancing to The Ramones. Shoot' em in the back now, eh Joey.

And before I get stomped on, I am not suggesting PvE should have the stripped down job kits of PvP. Frankly I'll never understand why we have so few buttons in PvP.

[Eyrilona]

I agree with the sentiment of OP, though I fear we might have to hope for a successor game to implement it because I highly doubt they can engineer that kind of change into this one, considering how many years they struggle already on far smaller and simpler things.

[Valence]

Oh, don't get me wrong - I am right there with you, especially since I have been with the game since 2.0, have seen that it used to be more, and I am lamenting the state it is in now. If your ideas were to come to pass I'd be super happy.
My worry is that the game has had this "Shadowbringers" kinda design for years now, and a sudden change in design paradigms may also alienate players, which is why something like that may have to be established very carefully.

Don't worry I was mostly arguing against an imaginary point of view. Call it a strawman if you will I guess.
I understand the player alienation, but on the other end, I also feel alienated by what they did over time so... There is a point as I said where it's just incompatible mindsets and goals for the game, and I'm not ashamed to say it, especially when it used to be more balanced instead of this encounter extremism we have now. If anything, I'd just like them to dial back a little and reintroduce some of what made XIV more balanced than it currently is, even if it remains mostly scripted to the bone. There are also instance design changes that could frankly introduce variations as well.

PVP is successful???

Yep. Pops almost all day long except in the night.

FFXIV is a game, and a game by definition has a challenge.
If you bypass the challenge cheating or leaving others solve the problems for you, the game lose an important quality/component of being a game. By definition, an activity without a challenge is a work.

Now, I cannot be a "student" forever. Soon or later I'll graduate (better sooner than later) and I leave the univ... the game.
If you don't feel any challenge anymore and you aren't cheating... good job, you are graduated now, but don't expect a game becoming more challenging with every expansion, because there are a lot of "student" and you cannot cut them out from the content.
If you think about it, the new 24 raid is a good thing. "students" can learn and have a challenge, "graduated" can explain and have a challenge leading a cat herd.

As I (implictly) said before: do not cheat, do not search for shortcut, accept n00bs and do not transform a game in a unpaid job.

So we went from blind runs to cheating to bypass the challenge? Why are we even speaking about cheating now?
You're confusing work with lack of challenge, work, at least in the way you seem to bring it forth as tedium, generally comes in opposition to entertainment, not challenge. One can enjoy challenge, but one can also find challenge egregiously tedious. This is just apples and oranges.
If your point about challenge is that people trying to streamline strats or just people not going in blind, are "cheating", well, that sure is a take I guess. A true purist for respecting the content... Good for you.

But as evidenced with the new 24 raid, I'm afraid I really don't share the same observations at all simply because the mechanical systems of the game do not allow much wiggle room for graduates to help students much, which leads to frustrations on both sides mainly tied to speed of progression, and the sheer amount of players driving the probabilities for wiping mistakes to happen dramatically.

I agree with the sentiment of OP, though I fear we might have to hope for a successor game to implement it because I highly doubt they can engineer that kind of change into this one, considering how many years they struggle already on far smaller and simpler things.

My hopes are as high as the landmass of the netherlands.

[Lilapop]

snip

Pops means it's a fan favorite success? I have a friend called Syrcus Tower who begs to differ.

[AnnRam]

PVP has been always the most successful mode in multiplayer games (Dota/LOL/CS) now imagine those games but with little PVP and solely focused into PVE , people will complain a lot, probably just like today in FFXIV.

FFXIV IT'S a multiplayer game but 90% hard focuses into PVE ignoring the whole aspect of what a MMO. No matter what you do, eventually people will get tired of fighting the same monsters who barely reacts and do simon says. This game always needed some competence between players, open world pvp zones, guild wars, territory conquest etc.

But nope, let people modbeast and ERP in udalh.