Chaotic Alliance Raid is a fun fight, but awful content

[LibitIncarne]

This exactly why the discussion about midcore players has been everywhere for the past 2 years, despite nobody agreeing on what it means.

Midcore is content that requires strategy to get through but doesn't have moments that result in a single point of failure wiping the party.

The Baldesion Arsenal is midcore. It requires planning and strategy to get through, but is heavily salvageable and in no way requires people to already be in full BIS to be able to clear it with a few mistakes.

Anything with hard bodychecks (Towers don't count unless missing more than one quarter wipes the party) or limit cuts is automatically hardcore content, unless they decide to put in a limit cut that doesn't immediately wipe the entire party for putting the 1 and 2 in the same place.

Anyone who claims that ultimates are hardcore and since savages are a step down in difficulty they're midcore is being disingenuous, the term for "harder than hardcore" is masocore, which is what ultimates are.

[Infindox]

You should probably consider charging people instead of letting raiders live rent free in your heads like this. Neither of you get to speak after the meltdown threads that are the Wuk, healer strike, and graphics update threads, all of which are only months old at best. The lack of self awareness is astounding, but not unexpected.

Or do you find me lumping all casuals together to be egridious? Sorry, just following your lead, kids.

I actually don't lump all raiders into the same category because I myself enjoy doing Savage runs (did not do it this tier because life but that's how it goes). I will probably do this raid when some people I know are back from the holidays (which is another issue entirely from the fight just being not what people wanted, but I won't go off topic).
But yeah, some raiders *do* lump all casuals together. I can point out many, many cases of someone actually trying out content like this and getting laughed out. And that's the kind the game sometimes seems to cater to. If I hurt your feelings thinking I was talking about you, I'm sorry... Unless you are one of those players, then eff off.
Also I actually like Wuk Lamat (shock) and a lot of people who were mad about her are also raiders? So what was your point on that? Same with the healer strike.

[AllenThyl]

Macchiato was arguing against the "if there is nothing to play, unsub" argument, which does ring true though. People keep telling players that if there is nothing in the game that interests them, they should unsub. But unsubbed people don't get gear, and don't get the experience required to clear this content. You see how that is an issue in and out of itself?
So its not actually "unsub", its "keep paying a sub fee, do your weeklies, and pray for content to drop that interests you".

And? Like seriously, what kind of absolute rubbish argument is that? This in an MMORPG! With character progression. One of the core gameplay loops is do content -> get gear -> do harder content -> get better gear. This game is already very lenient with it's gearing system, and allows people with a relative low time investment to gear up appropriately. In fact, with each new tier, the previous one gets invalidated and new easy to acquire baseline gear gets introduced so that people don't have to slog through all the previous content to catch up. I am sorry, but this whole discussion is reaching absolutely ridiculous levels. This is not a dress up simulator game. It's an action combat MMORPG. And quite frankly, some posters here should really start to look inward a bit whether or not they are actually playing the correct type of genre. Or if they actually need therapy to treat their video game addiction.

Thats not whats being argued here though.
i720 tome gear and i720 augmented crafted gear will still not get you in i730 locked out parties. Hells, you could have hunted and done your weeklies since 7.1 released, upgraded every gear piece you can, and still, due to having an i720 ring and i725 weapon at best, be locked out of i730 parties.
Does not matter if it is just a few % of damage difference, people use the i730 to lock out everyone that does not have savage gear.

That is PRESICELY what was being argued. If someone can't even make the base effort to get some freeby gear, what effort will these people make in content that requires them to actually do mechanics? The Chaotic Raid is an absolute pain to prog because every party is flooded with the typical pf leechers, who fail mechanic after mechanic. That's not on the fight, that's just the player base. And I can very much understand after 2 days of this quite frankly pathetic circus, how people are getting really fed up with the amount of prog liers and low effort participants that the ilvl gets raised to filter those who can't even bother to gear up.
Also, and that is what is the most pathetic thing about all this: Just make your own damn party then! With your own rules, your own item level, your own raidplan and strategies, whatever. All you people complaining here about being excluded are functioning adults, right? Paying taxes, bills, some having kids, dependents and all that. How is that such an insurmountable challenge for you all to organize yourself? It's pathetic, utterly pathetic.

Not everyone expects to be carried, but wanting a fighting chance to clear.

That is precisely what is being expected. All the rewards, none of the work. Gearing up is too much to ask, learning the mechanics is too much to ask, making their own parties is too much to ask. Bloody hell some people here are expecting to get talked through the whole encounter when something goes wrong instead of just, you know, asking. Like a functioning adult.

To be honest, people already do exactly this, so everything in this thread is par the course.

One unjust essentialist generalization does not justify another. The bashing and homogenization "casuals" is just as wrong as the self-inflicted helplessness a significant amount of people display, as well as the monsterization of "hardcores". Some people in this and the other thread are very quick to say which groups and / or individuals are "hating" which other group, despite all parties being present and able to speak for themselves. People doing high end raids aren't some fringe group in this community. They make up a sizeable portion. It is quite frankly pretty disgusting to see how member of a community that unjustifiably prides itself so extremely on its "inclusivity" being so rhetorically vicious.

This is not a healthy relationship to have with an MMORPG.

[Lilapop]

snip

You cannot get ilvl 730 across the board without current tier Savage. At most, without it, you can get ilvl 729 which will STILL lock you out of ilvl 730 parties. I'm missing the part where Savage raiding is considered "easy freebee baseline gear".

[caffe_macchiato]

incoherent whining

You seem either very old or very young. During the golden age of MMOs (2000s), they did not exist for sweating and competition. They existed to provide a virtual world where people could do all sorts of activities with self-set goal objectives. This is why crafting and gathering systems exist, and have always existed, along with role play and other non-combat activities. It is not about “beating the game”. That is late-stage WoW mentality. You must have seen all of that on Twitch and that’s why you think FFXIV should be like that. Sorry son, but the MMO genre is a lot older than xQc. This is not a competitive game. Never has been, never will be—although it seems Yoshi-P really wants that Twitch audience nowadays. Unfortunate.

[Wyssahtyn]

- What happened to being able to go in with a smaller party and practice mechanics? How are we supposed to practice a 24-man body check with 12 people?

director lies, sorry, checks notes, "changed development plans", more at eleven

[CNitsah]

yeah ok let's ignore the glaring issues with the group of people who constantly keep getting outed as being sexual predators and the apparant chokehold they seem to have on the game's balancing

WTF just happened? Did you just imply that all the casuals are sexual predators. Is this a misquote? Are you ok?

[Kaurhz]

One unjust essentialist generalization does not justify another. The bashing and homogenization "casuals" is just as wrong as the self-inflicted helplessness a significant amount of people display, as well as the monsterization of "hardcores". Some people in this and the other thread are very quick to say which groups and / or individuals are "hating" which other group, despite all parties being present and able to speak for themselves. People doing high end raids aren't some fringe group in this community. They make up a sizeable portion. It is quite frankly pretty disgusting to see how member of a community that unjustifiably prides itself so extremely on its "inclusivity" being so rhetorically vicious.

This is not a healthy relationship to have with an MMORPG.

I am not justifying either, I am just making that OP aware that all these issues already occur in the game and on the forums, I am well aware of how detrimental said behavior is, and I don't condone it by any measure, but it is still unfortunately expected. One side bites, then the other bites back just as much and on so goes reciprocation.

I do actually agree with you, but SE doesn't actually accommodate for inclusivity in the first place, contrary to what might be believed, so this is just going to be something that invariably cascades down to the entire community, where we're more focused on pointing the stick, rather than examining the underlying issue. Your responses above to OvIm are just as much a contributory factor as anything else, albeit on the tamer side of the 'vicious rhetoric', but it is still definitely present.

[FuturePastNow]

This isn't a dress up simulator game? Since when?

You cannot get ilvl 730 across the board without current tier Savage. At most, without it, you can get ilvl 729 which will STILL lock you out of ilvl 730 parties. I'm missing the part where Savage raiding is considered "easy freebee baseline gear".

I'd like to also note that, since it doesn't drop a weapon or accessories, clearing the Chaotic raid still won't get someone to 730 if they don't do Savage

[AllenThyl]

You seem either very old or very young. During the golden age of MMOs (2000s), they did not exist for sweating and competition. They existed to provide a virtual world where people could do all sorts of activities with self-set goal objectives. This is why crafting and gathering systems exist, and have always existed, along with role play and other non-combat activities. It is not about “beating the game”. That is late-stage WoW mentality. You must have seen all of that on Twitch and that’s why you think FFXIV should be like that. Sorry son, but the MMO genre is a lot older than xQc. This is not a competitive game. Never has been, never will be—although it seems Yoshi-P really wants that Twitch audience nowadays. Unfortunate.

"They did not exist for sweating and competition" - yeah, right. People just grouped up to do battle content, didn't actually bother doing the content for 3 hours, and then everyone went home satisfied. Sweet baby Thaliak, what kind of reality perception do you have?
In a game, any game, with challenging combat content, people would group up to do this content. With the intention to do it. To get the rewards, or achievements, or satisfaction. The same is true for this fight. Want the rewards? Do the content. Find other likeminded people, organize yourself, do the damn content. You are the main character only in the story, where everyone wants to help you and be your friend (whether you want it or not) and do everything for you. Outside of the story, you are just one player, one human. If you want the goodwill of others, you will have to interact with these others and earn their goodwill in a matter which they see fit. Just as you are sovereign over how you distribute your own goodwill. If groups set a certain ilvl requirement to exclude people who can't meet it (and thus are also very likely not bringing the player skill to properly solve the encounter), then that is their prerogative. If you want to do your own group with your own rules, then that is also your prerogative. This whole "but the raiders need to include as" is nothing but entitlement of the most selfish and arrogant sort. It's main character syndrome manifest.