Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

[lunartears]

So many people in the English part of the fandom insist that "it's more realistic now, so it's better!" For example, I was very surprised to see how many people celebrated the loss of the eye catchlights as they were "unrealistic" or whatever, because to me they were a very appealing part of the animesque art style. I'm not arguing with people who like their own characters more without them, but now that they're gone, it turns out that for my male Miqo'te they were an important part of his look and energy. A toggle would've been nice. What's suddenly so wrong with looking like a semi-realistic anime character in this game, anyway? It feels like the graphics update emboldened a part of the fandom that had issues with the old art style rather than being drawn to it. I've even seen people in places like Reddit defend the update because "it's not realistic to look good all the time", seriously. We can't look good from all angles and at all times in our power fantasy game with a dress-up endgame now? I can't even remember the last time I opened Gpose, that's how realistic it feels.

I feel like when older video games had limitations it gave developers more room to innovate creatively, so when you strip those technical limitations away you risk losing a lot of that. I feel like this is what happened to FF14. I guess you could say the graphics update is similar to when a video game gets a remake (just on a smaller scale). The split between those that like the new and those that prefer the old is akin to that, but because this is an MMO there's not really an easy way to please both sides whereas with a remake you still have the option to go and play the original game (to varying levels of accessibility, of course).

I'm definitely one of those people that feels like the artistic integrity of this game got lost with the graphics update. I suppose it's the "anime esque art style", the way the game would embody the official art book content and feel like an illustration rather than being realistic. I really liked that.

[Iscah]

I guess you could say the graphics update is similar to when a video game gets a remake (just on a smaller scale). The split between those that like the new and those that prefer the old is akin to that, but because this is an MMO there's not really an easy way to please both sides whereas with a remake you still have the option to go and play the original game (to varying levels of accessibility, of course).

It is definitely giving me flashbacks to the Shadow of the Colossus PS4 remake (the original is a PS2 game). More detailed world but they made it too busy and some questionable texture choices, and the protagonist looked horrendous. I've been meaning to mention it for a while, particularly since I saw this Reddit post comparing SotC Wander in PS2 to PS4 and it feels like the same mistakes (with even worse remodelling) – going from stylised somewhat-anime appearance that made it work well with the original limited technology, to a sort of exaggerated 3Dness, heavy shadows and dead eyes. Also this one of Mono (new version on top, also spoilers) who is less outright bad but, as I noted there, has some of the same issues that FFXIV new models have – including the oddly specific change to the shape of her eyes when closed. (Back in FFXIV, it's one of the many things that has been bugging me since the update – the lower eyelid moves upwards more and the eyes feel scrunched inwards rather than resting gently closed.)


I do feel like we should be able to have a version of the game that runs the old graphics, though. The information being sent from one player to another is just simple "character has features X, Y and Z" and that gets translated into graphics by the individual computer. That's how modders can have their customised graphics, so couldn't they do the same thing with an official version of the program that has the old graphics still loaded?

[SchwarzwaelderTorte]

Personally, I thought the old eyes were lifeless and vacant. I always disliked how every character standing around a city or wherever always looked like O_O as if they just got back from war. The new eyes still look plenty stylized to me, they just have a depth and life to them now that the old ones didn't, in my opinion.

So... what exactly made them look lifeless to you? Because this is more or less how I would describe the new eyes, ironically (the war PTSD analogy is even more appropriate now that their eyes are constantly slightly shaking...).
Even in full daylight, depending on the character the highlights are sometimes not displayed "correctly" or not at all, and it looks very much like a common anime trope that is synonymous with "lifelessness".

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

More options is always better in this case. You can have your stuffs. I can have mine.

SE need to realize this or people will continue to bicker non-stop. It’ll only get worse as they try to flip flop back & forth between old > new > adjusted > aaaaadjusted (lol) models over time.

[CidHeiral]

The old system worked and was sufficiently convincing as it was.

In your subjective opinion. I disagree and think they looked pretty awful. Both views are perfectly valid opinions to have.

So... what exactly made them look lifeless to you?

Everything. The stark white sclera, the brightly over saturated and flat iris, the general lack of any sort of shadowing on them, the lack of any movement unless you were targeting something, etc. They remind me of that villain from Who Framed Roger Rabbit.



The new eyes address all of those issues and I think they look fantastic. Characters no longer look like soulless automatons staring blankly into the void. I think the subtle movement they added to the eyes looks great as well. In my opinion they've had a massive amount of life breathed into them, it's really night and day.

That being said, a lot of people bring up anime when talking about the eyes and if you're a big anime fan I can see how you may prefer the old style. Whatever your reasons are I don't think there's anything wrong with liking the old eyes, it's just personal preference.

[TheDustyOne]

I do feel like we should be able to have a version of the game that runs the old graphics, though. The information being sent from one player to another is just simple "character has features X, Y and Z" and that gets translated into graphics by the individual computer. That's how modders can have their customised graphics, so couldn't they do the same thing with an official version of the program that has the old graphics still loaded?

The main argument against this would be the doubling up of assets. The graphics update also brought an overhaul of how materials worked, and as such you'd have to create 2 sets of materials for every new model; every model would likely need to have a higher-poly version to fit with the new aesthetic and a lower-poly version for the old client; and if it was going to be a toggle in-game, that would require having the game size balloon to massive degrees, you'd need a fully separate client instead, and that would double the amount of testing needed.

Part of the reason for the graphics update, for good or ill, was to change the development pipeline. By having 2 versions of assets, they now potentially double the workload needed, which would be massively unfeasible with their already slow updates.

I think the graphics update was nice to have, but I do lament the change in the overall style and so I join these threads in the hopes to implement fixes with their new pipeline and rendering techniques. I do think it's possible to have better models, textures, materials, etc. while also adhering to the old aesthetic.

[SchwarzwaelderTorte]

They remind me of that villain from Who Framed Roger Rabbit.

Ok, but that analogy only works because they pasted cartoonish eyes onto an actual live human, and the stylistic clash is done on purpose to give you that sense of discomfort.
FFXIV is not a game with a realistic art style, and if anything with the new exaggerated creases on the lips and under the eyes, and the rough grainy skin texture slapped onto stylized 3D models, you have the exact opposite effect which achieves exactly the same sense of discomfort.

If you have a problem with white scleras and oversaturated irises in a world where Lalafells exist and a franchise in which most characters have spiky, stylized and unrealistic haircuts... why were you playing this game until now?

[CidHeiral]

Ok, but that analogy only works because they pasted cartoonish eyes onto an actual live human, and the stylistic clash is done on purpose to give you that sense of discomfort. FFXIV is not a game with a realistic art style, and if anything with the new exaggerated creases on the lips and under the eyes, and the rough grainy skin texture slapped onto stylized 3D models, you have the exact opposite effect which achieves exactly the same sense of discomfort.

I wasn't making a commentary on the contrast between his eyes and his otherwise real face, I was just saying the old eyes reminded me of his.

I'd have to disagree with the latter part of your assessment. The models look plenty stylized to me, just with more detail. You're free to prefer whichever you please.

If you have a problem with white scleras and oversaturated irises in a world where Lalafells exist and a franchise in which most characters have spiky, stylized and unrealistic haircuts... why were you playing this game until now?

I had a feeling your original post was just a setup for a snarky comment but I had hoped it was still possible to have a polite conversation in here. Disappointing but I'll make sure to keep that in mind going forward.

[SchwarzwaelderTorte]

I wasn't making a commentary on the contrast between his eyes and his otherwise real face, I was just saying the old eyes reminded me of his.

But why do they remind you of his eyes specifically, and not of any cartoon or anime character with red irises, white scleras and painted eye highlights?
Why was this the first example you had in mind to describe what you didn't like about the eyes prior to the graphical update?
Is it not because, even unconsciously, that contrast and sense of discomfort left an impression on you that you were trying to convey by sharing this example?

I'm sorry if asking somewhat provoking questions instead of "agreeing to disagreeing" is interpreted as being rude and snarky, but I'm legit trying to understand where the people who have opposing opinions come from (it's quite difficult when people only say "idk what you're all complaining about I think it's better xD"), and sometimes when I come across inconsistencies like "I didn't like the stylized anime eyes in this stylized anime(ish) game" it can be quite confusing.

Like, I came to FFXIV from another MMO with a fairly stylized animeish style, knowing that it was a FF title, a franchise known for its stylized animeish style, and knowing to expect a stylized animeish game.
I would be interested in trying out FFXI for the same reasons, even if it's a game that came out 20+ years ago with PS2 era graphics (the only things that are holding me back are the time restriction on the free trial, the outdated UI, and I heard that the game systems are a lot more cryptic than FFXIV and I don't know if I have the patience for it)
On the other hand, I've never played WoW because I could never get past the art style (the characters and environments look too bulky and "painted on" for me, in a Games Workshop kind of way, which I imagine was the intention).

So, genuinely, I have a hard time understanding why you would play a game for so long if everytime you looked at your own character or NPCs in cutscenes, you had issues with the stylized eyes, or you would think "what's with these soulless automatons that look like they just got back from war".

I can also say that I did feel that way back in ARR when looking at my own character, but that's because in ARR cutscenes the player character barely has any facial expression (at least prior to 7.0, now they added an extra smile in the intro cutscene in Gridania, so maybe they improved other cutscenes too), and if I hadn't pushed through until the end of Heavensward (where your character becomes a lot more expressive, for obvious MSQ reasons) I would have probably dropped the game because of that.

[BiddyBatnana]

It's ok to think the old eyes were shit compared to the new ones. Which is the case also for me.
I liked the old ones to an extent but with the newest materials the eyes look 10x better and more alive, added to the materials on the skin it's a great combo.

Anime style doesn't really work in FFXIV (imo) because we lack cell shading and proper shaders to make it look convincing as a anime game.
Also pointy features were due to a lack of polygons and vertex when modeling the characters back then.

I believe the new direction is to make the game more realisitic and closer to FFXVI and I'm here for it, even though it takes time to get adjusted to the face's features that were changed during the graphical update.