Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

[Daralii]

So many people in the English part of the fandom insist that "it's more realistic now, so it's better!" For example, I was very surprised to see how many people celebrated the loss of the eye catchlights as they were "unrealistic" or whatever, because to me they were a very appealing part of the animesque art style. I'm not arguing with people who like their own characters more without them, but now that they're gone, it turns out that for my male Miqo'te they were an important part of his look and energy. A toggle would've been nice. What's suddenly so wrong with looking like a semi-realistic anime character in this game, anyway? It feels like the graphics update emboldened a part of the fandom that had issues with the old art style rather than being drawn to it. I've even seen people in places like Reddit defend the update because "it's not realistic to look good all the time", seriously. We can't look good from all angles and at all times in our power fantasy game with a dress-up endgame now? I can't even remember the last time I opened Gpose, that's how realistic it feels.

But recently I've also seen a lot of people express their preference for the old graphics in general, not just the character models, and I agree and miss them very much. It's not that I'm seriously expecting SE to offer this, but if we did have the option to switch back, I'd take that without hesitation. And having said that, the new graphics still wouldn't be quite this unappealing to me if the character models had at least remained the same. I complain because I worry for my main. Having seen the list of changes in 7.1, male Miqo'te really didn't get anything. From what I've read, SE sees no problem with the many issues that all Miqo'te eyebrows seem to have right now, so I feel like they're not going to do anything about those. They've been quite reluctant to return to original mouth shapes. No hints as to whether they're going to do anything about the droopy eyes. My character went from having a gorgeous face (just needed slightly thicker eyebrow options to be 10/10) to someone who needs very specific angles and lighting conditions to have a fraction of his old looks back. That's... a bit too close to real life, I think.

There's also no consistency. They were seemingly angling for realism with the eyes and the area around them(it's the only explanation I can come up with for the number of pronounced skin folds on some faces), but the rest of the face is still stylized, just more homogenous. If you look at a place like Idyllshire, you have attempts at realistic weathered brass or bronze next to stylized wood and stonework.

[CidHeiral]

So many people in the English part of the fandom insist that "it's more realistic now, so it's better!" For example, I was very surprised to see how many people celebrated the loss of the eye catchlights as they were "unrealistic" or whatever, because to me they were a very appealing part of the animesque art style.

I think this is a large part of why there's such a disconnect between people who love the update and people who don't. Some people view the update as the same art style but better while others view it has as a massive deviation from the established art style.

Looking at the eyes specifically, the old catchlights were painted on due to technical limitations at the time. If the devs could have done the catchlights we have now at that time they probably would have. Some may say if that's what people have gotten used to for ten years then that is art style and it shouldn't change. Others may argue that decisions made from technical limitations shouldn't lock the devs into a particular look forever. I don't think either view is necessarily incorrect, but those two viewpoints colliding is where you're seeing a lot of disagreements between players.

Personally, I thought the old eyes were lifeless and vacant. I always disliked how every character standing around a city or wherever always looked like O_O as if they just got back from war. The new eyes still look plenty stylized to me, they just have a depth and life to them now that the old ones didn't, in my opinion. As Loggos has been saying though it's all subjective at the end of the day.

[Iscah]

Looking at the eyes specifically, the old catchlights were painted on due to technical limitations at the time.

They weren't really "painted on", though. They moved with the camera, it just wasn't reflecting a real light.

Now they've had to set up real fake lights just to ensure that the eyes have a light they can reflect and it's changing the colour temperature of the light, like my Duskwight I posted earlier, or this daylight shot of my Miqo'te.

It's also probably the base cause of the over-lit MSQ cutscenes people have previously posted screenshots of, and I assume is the reason for those reflected "spotlights from nowhere" you can see constantly reflected on floors now.

The old system worked and was sufficiently convincing as it was. The new system has to jump through hoops to ensure catchlights happen, and makes other parts of the game look worse in the process.

[CuteBucket]

They weren't really "painted on", though. They moved with the camera, it just wasn't reflecting a real light.

Now they've had to set up real fake lights just to ensure that the eyes have a light they can reflect and it's changing the colour temperature of the light, like my Duskwight I posted earlier, or this daylight shot of my Miqo'te.

It's also probably the base cause of the over-lit MSQ cutscenes people have previously posted screenshots of, and I assume is the reason for those reflected "spotlights from nowhere" you can see constantly reflected on floors now.

The old system worked and was sufficiently convincing as it was. The new system has to jump through hoops to ensure catchlights happen, and makes other parts of the game look worse in the process.

And even with all that, eyes STILL look dead and lifeless in 7.x to me. The old eye textures were just better. What did this "realistic" update actually give us that didn't also take 2 or 3 other things away in the process?

[lunartears]

So many people in the English part of the fandom insist that "it's more realistic now, so it's better!" For example, I was very surprised to see how many people celebrated the loss of the eye catchlights as they were "unrealistic" or whatever, because to me they were a very appealing part of the animesque art style. I'm not arguing with people who like their own characters more without them, but now that they're gone, it turns out that for my male Miqo'te they were an important part of his look and energy. A toggle would've been nice. What's suddenly so wrong with looking like a semi-realistic anime character in this game, anyway? It feels like the graphics update emboldened a part of the fandom that had issues with the old art style rather than being drawn to it. I've even seen people in places like Reddit defend the update because "it's not realistic to look good all the time", seriously. We can't look good from all angles and at all times in our power fantasy game with a dress-up endgame now? I can't even remember the last time I opened Gpose, that's how realistic it feels.

I feel like when older video games had limitations it gave developers more room to innovate creatively, so when you strip those technical limitations away you risk losing a lot of that. I feel like this is what happened to FF14. I guess you could say the graphics update is similar to when a video game gets a remake (just on a smaller scale). The split between those that like the new and those that prefer the old is akin to that, but because this is an MMO there's not really an easy way to please both sides whereas with a remake you still have the option to go and play the original game (to varying levels of accessibility, of course).

I'm definitely one of those people that feels like the artistic integrity of this game got lost with the graphics update. I suppose it's the "anime esque art style", the way the game would embody the official art book content and feel like an illustration rather than being realistic. I really liked that.

[Iscah]

I guess you could say the graphics update is similar to when a video game gets a remake (just on a smaller scale). The split between those that like the new and those that prefer the old is akin to that, but because this is an MMO there's not really an easy way to please both sides whereas with a remake you still have the option to go and play the original game (to varying levels of accessibility, of course).

It is definitely giving me flashbacks to the Shadow of the Colossus PS4 remake (the original is a PS2 game). More detailed world but they made it too busy and some questionable texture choices, and the protagonist looked horrendous. I've been meaning to mention it for a while, particularly since I saw this Reddit post comparing SotC Wander in PS2 to PS4 and it feels like the same mistakes (with even worse remodelling) – going from stylised somewhat-anime appearance that made it work well with the original limited technology, to a sort of exaggerated 3Dness, heavy shadows and dead eyes. Also this one of Mono (new version on top, also spoilers) who is less outright bad but, as I noted there, has some of the same issues that FFXIV new models have – including the oddly specific change to the shape of her eyes when closed. (Back in FFXIV, it's one of the many things that has been bugging me since the update – the lower eyelid moves upwards more and the eyes feel scrunched inwards rather than resting gently closed.)


I do feel like we should be able to have a version of the game that runs the old graphics, though. The information being sent from one player to another is just simple "character has features X, Y and Z" and that gets translated into graphics by the individual computer. That's how modders can have their customised graphics, so couldn't they do the same thing with an official version of the program that has the old graphics still loaded?

[SchwarzwaelderTorte]

Personally, I thought the old eyes were lifeless and vacant. I always disliked how every character standing around a city or wherever always looked like O_O as if they just got back from war. The new eyes still look plenty stylized to me, they just have a depth and life to them now that the old ones didn't, in my opinion.

So... what exactly made them look lifeless to you? Because this is more or less how I would describe the new eyes, ironically (the war PTSD analogy is even more appropriate now that their eyes are constantly slightly shaking...).
Even in full daylight, depending on the character the highlights are sometimes not displayed "correctly" or not at all, and it looks very much like a common anime trope that is synonymous with "lifelessness".

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

More options is always better in this case. You can have your stuffs. I can have mine.

SE need to realize this or people will continue to bicker non-stop. It’ll only get worse as they try to flip flop back & forth between old > new > adjusted > aaaaadjusted (lol) models over time.

[CidHeiral]

The old system worked and was sufficiently convincing as it was.

In your subjective opinion. I disagree and think they looked pretty awful. Both views are perfectly valid opinions to have.

So... what exactly made them look lifeless to you?

Everything. The stark white sclera, the brightly over saturated and flat iris, the general lack of any sort of shadowing on them, the lack of any movement unless you were targeting something, etc. They remind me of that villain from Who Framed Roger Rabbit.



The new eyes address all of those issues and I think they look fantastic. Characters no longer look like soulless automatons staring blankly into the void. I think the subtle movement they added to the eyes looks great as well. In my opinion they've had a massive amount of life breathed into them, it's really night and day.

That being said, a lot of people bring up anime when talking about the eyes and if you're a big anime fan I can see how you may prefer the old style. Whatever your reasons are I don't think there's anything wrong with liking the old eyes, it's just personal preference.

[TheDustyOne]

I do feel like we should be able to have a version of the game that runs the old graphics, though. The information being sent from one player to another is just simple "character has features X, Y and Z" and that gets translated into graphics by the individual computer. That's how modders can have their customised graphics, so couldn't they do the same thing with an official version of the program that has the old graphics still loaded?

The main argument against this would be the doubling up of assets. The graphics update also brought an overhaul of how materials worked, and as such you'd have to create 2 sets of materials for every new model; every model would likely need to have a higher-poly version to fit with the new aesthetic and a lower-poly version for the old client; and if it was going to be a toggle in-game, that would require having the game size balloon to massive degrees, you'd need a fully separate client instead, and that would double the amount of testing needed.

Part of the reason for the graphics update, for good or ill, was to change the development pipeline. By having 2 versions of assets, they now potentially double the workload needed, which would be massively unfeasible with their already slow updates.

I think the graphics update was nice to have, but I do lament the change in the overall style and so I join these threads in the hopes to implement fixes with their new pipeline and rendering techniques. I do think it's possible to have better models, textures, materials, etc. while also adhering to the old aesthetic.