List of 7.1 PvP Change Grievances

[Loggos]

I've already talked about it in another thread but I would like to add it here too since this seems to be the closest to an "official" thread for collecting feedback.

Tl,dr: It seems like whenever an attack of yours is technically interrupted (for whatever reason) but the animation still plays out fully you get the worst of both worlds: no effect is triggered but the skill also counts as "executed".
If you used an oGCD it is now on cooldown and you’ve wasted it, if it was a GCD skill you'll get the GCD delay accordingly.

(Bold font for easier readability bc the text is so long.)

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This problem includes (but is probably not exclusive to):

1) When you die but your skill's animation still plays out fully
2) When your target dies to somebody else but your animation still plays out fully
3) (if I'm not mistaken) when people move around with skills such as teleports or jumps (not sure about dashes) -- I'm a bit hesitant here because I think I have observed this a couple of times but I can't rule out that my observation is incorrect on this one.
(Ironically, if somebody just runs out of your line of sight but your skill finishes casting, they do get hit.)

That's all I have noticed so far but perhaps there are more instances.


I do not think this can be counted as other people just "dodging" because a) AoEs should still affect everyone who gets hit by them. However this is not the case. Your AoE damage/utility gets lost in the void for good if your target becomes "unavailable". As a result everybody standing close to them remains safe/unaffected as well.

And b) it doesn't respect skills' usual "moments of impact" (more in a second). It just outright ignores them even when the point in the animation where damage and effects are normally registered has already played out (and should therefore have triggered effects).

What I mean with "moment of impact" is that for many skills their damage and effect are actually not registered at the very end of their animation but at that point in the animation where it visually "hits" the opponent (ignoring server delay for a second).
It's easily visible when using spells. After a spell visually touches a target and the damage/utility is applied the animation still has a visual resolution (flames dissipating, laser beam continuing to shoot etc.).
You can test it on a dummy and find out for your skills when exactly in the progress of their animation the damage and effects are registered according to the feedback on your screen (again, ignoring the discrepancy between processes on the server and the player's device).

Regarding my point from the beginning, this means even if your skill is technically nullified long after it should have hit according to the animation, it just flat-out doesn't count.
This makes "last moment" reactions like sending out one last attack/(de)buff before you die impossible, even though according to the animation you still had enough time to do so.
It is particularly frustrating when you lose defensive utilities like healing tied to the hit of your skills (e.g., healing on White Comet), esp. if they might have saved you had their effect been counted.

I'm not sure if this is a server delay thing because in my observation it happens categorically, even in games where your screen feedback and actual in-game events (seemed to) have more or less aligned so far.
(I wonder if there is just some priority system at works here if that makes sense from a technical standpoint?)


Either way, it is very, very frustrating and feels really unfair because you either lose resources frequently to things you can’t control. Or in the case of your death the entire gameplay aspect of “split seconds reactions” seems to have been “removed”/turned off (unintentionally or not). So when you’re certain you’re about to die you might just as well not bother pressing any buttons for some last actions because that stun you want to throw out for your remaining party’s benefit? Doesn’t work anyway in my experience.

I’d be very curious to know if others have experienced this as well or if this could somehow be a problem on my part.

[Mawlzy]

I think some of this was a feature in 7.0, and the hit detection changes made matters significantly worse in 7.1. Of the things you mention, I think the following are particularly galling and non-sensical:

1. A skill doesn't land because the target died, yet the skill still goes on cooldown. This is bad in general and completely incomprehensible when the animation does not even start.

2. Health steal via damage actions. This used to be somewhat reliable (e.g., WAR under bloodwhetting). In 7.1 it seems mostly ineffective, or at least unpredictable and based on the whims of hit detection.

Along with the other issues you mention, this leads to a situation where the game appears very fast (lots of motion), but skill application feels like you're playing on ketamine.

[Aco505]

Tl,dr: It seems like whenever an attack of yours is technically interrupted (for whatever reason) but the animation still plays out fully you get the worst of both worlds: no effect is triggered but the skill also counts as "executed".
If you used an oGCD it is now on cooldown and you’ve wasted it, if it was a GCD skill you'll get the GCD delay accordingly.

This was already a thing before 7.1. I've lost countless Wyrmwind Thrusts because I was polymorphed as I fired it, and even though the button was pressed, no damage or animation happened.

[Valence]

This was already a thing before 7.1. I've lost countless Wyrmwind Thrusts because I was polymorphed as I fired it, and even though the button was pressed, no damage or animation happened.

Yes because the damage resolution, even if calculated at snapshot, resolved later. Right now it still does resolve later (and sometimes much later depending on the skill), but whether it's calculated when it resolve due to the changes or not doesn't change the fact that the server thinks you pressed the button and used the skill anyway. Right now I'm getting ghosted Dances of the Dawn with no buff gained when I cast it on a target that dies too early before it lands.

That's the problem with increased delays like those, and the more time it takes for a skill to land, the more chances are that you'll either overkill/ghost/lose effects.

[DendrielConcade]

I am just so painfully confused about so many of the things I see in PvP that some might just be personal grievances, others I feel like everyone could stand by.

1. Why did they nerf [Purify]'s uptime and not make the downtime actually reasonable in an environment where most classes have some form of hard CC somewhere in their kit? Cooldown should've easily been 20s at the highest, 15s at the lowest for 3s uptime.
2. WHM spends Mana on casting [Miracle of Nature], but not [Cure 2]? Like it feels obvious it should've been the thing that got the Mana cost on it, like 2000MP because its 3k shy of [Recuperate].
3. NIN casually can do everything competently, from Sustain, AoE, Pursuit, Poke, Nuke, Guard Negation, Team Utility, and CC Pressure. They're a menace frankly, with an untouched Limit letting them defeat entire teams if they're not the only one alive. I don't want NIN gutted but jeez they're so painfully annoying to fight.
4. I still hate [Standard-Issue Elixir] and it went unchanged, a free full reset to your Health and Mana in an environment where now a lot of things take an age to actually connect to a target to interrupt the heal that says its 5s but as we all know with channels it doesn't actually abide to that and is like 4.3s. They really need to make the cast time 10s on it, or make it go on cooldown for 60s or something around that time.
5. Getting out of [Guard] feels awful, for the exchange of going into it feeling great. You can legit hard counter Limits like MCH's with it with good timing than just taking it after you're marked, but in turn if you're low health coming out of [Guard] you are basically dead, no chance if people are around you and hitting you.
6. VPR feels better for sure, but I still do not like how [Snake Scales] is almost a death-sentence a good portion of the time than a good stall tool and counter tool. The heal takes a moment too long to come out to be useful sometimes, and you lose your 50% MIT immediately on cast which it should have a 1s timer to retain that bonus when coming out if it so it isn't instant death when you're actionable. [Ouroboros] feels painfully clunky for how long it actually takes to come out, it feels like it takes 2 whole seconds to come out(I haven't tested) which for sure makes for weird disjointed damage and healing if you immediately go into [Snake Scales] right after but, why must it be like this?
7. MNK both feels better because it does have more AoE in it than prior, but some of the stuff just doesn't feel right. As stated by someone else, MNK's [Phantom Rush] takes an age to come out after you spend a while building it up, when it honestly should be a 3-Fold/5-Fold attack that equals up to its current potency for more consistency in actually getting the hit off. MNK really feels like they did NIN again but without all the utility it has than the Martial Artist it should be.

[Ixon]

Why can you suffer from Heavy or Bind while in Guard? Guard got nerfed as it is with the multitude of pierces and debuff's, why do you also have to suffer from crowd control as well? This has been highlighted of course by AST 5sec Heavy making Guard a death sentence instead of an escape.

[Valence]

I am just so painfully confused about so many of the things I see in PvP that some might just be personal grievances, others I feel like everyone could stand by.

1. Why did they nerf [Purify]'s uptime and not make the downtime actually reasonable in an environment where most classes have some form of hard CC somewhere in their kit? Cooldown should've easily been 20s at the highest, 15s at the lowest for 3s uptime.
2. WHM spends Mana on casting [Miracle of Nature], but not [Cure 2]? Like it feels obvious it should've been the thing that got the Mana cost on it, like 2000MP because its 3k shy of [Recuperate].
3. NIN casually can do everything competently, from Sustain, AoE, Pursuit, Poke, Nuke, Guard Negation, Team Utility, and CC Pressure. They're a menace frankly, with an untouched Limit letting them defeat entire teams if they're not the only one alive. I don't want NIN gutted but jeez they're so painfully annoying to fight.
4. I still hate [Standard-Issue Elixir] and it went unchanged, a free full reset to your Health and Mana in an environment where now a lot of things take an age to actually connect to a target to interrupt the heal that says its 5s but as we all know with channels it doesn't actually abide to that and is like 4.3s. They really need to make the cast time 10s on it, or make it go on cooldown for 60s or something around that time.
5. Getting out of [Guard] feels awful, for the exchange of going into it feeling great. You can legit hard counter Limits like MCH's with it with good timing than just taking it after you're marked, but in turn if you're low health coming out of [Guard] you are basically dead, no chance if people are around you and hitting you.
6. VPR feels better for sure, but I still do not like how [Snake Scales] is almost a death-sentence a good portion of the time than a good stall tool and counter tool. The heal takes a moment too long to come out to be useful sometimes, and you lose your 50% MIT immediately on cast which it should have a 1s timer to retain that bonus when coming out if it so it isn't instant death when you're actionable. [Ouroboros] feels painfully clunky for how long it actually takes to come out, it feels like it takes 2 whole seconds to come out(I haven't tested) which for sure makes for weird disjointed damage and healing if you immediately go into [Snake Scales] right after but, why must it be like this?
7. MNK both feels better because it does have more AoE in it than prior, but some of the stuff just doesn't feel right. As stated by someone else, MNK's [Phantom Rush] takes an age to come out after you spend a while building it up, when it honestly should be a 3-Fold/5-Fold attack that equals up to its current potency for more consistency in actually getting the hit off. MNK really feels like they did NIN again but without all the utility it has than the Martial Artist it should be.

1) completely agreed. They added even more cc in the game, and Purify is pitiful. And I'm not even talking about using it to cover yourself during certain actions that take more time than its duration to wind up (*cough* Contradance *cough*).
2) Yeah I actually think you nailed something here, where heals from regen healers should probably cost mana even if they remain a gain on average on mana per heal potency. And if it makes it that Waltz on DNC also does, then so be it (i'll take damage boosts in compensation though please).
3) The defining trait of NIN has always been that it's a swiss army's knife so I'm fine with it. Its damage got buffed I think with Meppo, but the LB is too oppressive right now.
4) What would you do than once you're out of resources but managed to escape? Twiddle your thumbs until your MP and HP regens slowly? Or go back and die immediately?
5) It sucks because Purify and Recup take ages to resolve and have the same sludgey animation than almost every action now. You get out of guard, you instantly get stunned because your opponents have been waiting for this, and the time it takes to press purify, then recup, you're already dead unless you have a pocket AST. As a design it doesn't function properly in practice right now.

[DendrielConcade]

4) What would you do than once you're out of resources but managed to escape? Twiddle your thumbs until your MP and HP regens slowly? Or go back and die immediately?

I just want a Give/Take with the [Standard-Issue Elixir], not a complete removal of it. As I suggested...

• A 10s cast time on it feels long but compared to dying, you'd be waiting for 10s, then waiting for the spawn animation to play, then you become actionable. I feel this is reasonable if you're doing a full health and mana reset on a button with no cooldown.
• A 45s/60s Cooldown with its current design at 5s Cast I feel would also be reasonable, it means someone hopping back into the fight after using it and being stuck in a bad position but not fully out of the game feels a bit more fair in my honest opinion.

I frankly feel like its worth changing somehow, my suggestions aren't the only thing worth to suggest of course, and the numbers aren't fixed, but I believe it needs to be changed no matter what.

[Valence]

I'd rather them to deal with AST/WHM combined to tanks being able to sustain for eons, which allows people to casually elixir again and again without their team disintegrating while they take their time, and see where we end up first. It's weird when you're in a team without an AST and tanks because suddenly your team feels incredibly brittle.

Because otherwise those solutions, honestly, even if I understand where you're coming from, don't sound fun to play with at all to me.

[LuciaGreene]

I'm enjoying the changes to RDM. I miss the DOT from the melee combo but it still works well. As for the game play mechanics, there is a delay with being able to use an ogcd after a gcd. This is a concern that should be addressed.