List of 7.1 PvP Change Grievances

[BlueMageQuina]

I agree with so much of this post but there are just some points that are plainly and factually wrong and I can't let you get away with these fallacious arguments because they are made in bad faith.

- Astro's Macrocosmos somehow becoming a party-wide cooldown
- Astro has been buffed into the stratosphere

99% of the new CC spam is coming from AST's Gravity II which got buffed from single-target to AoE. To make matters worse they can hold another instacast Gravity II in reserve for that right moment, and they got Reaper's teleport. What in the hell were they thinking?

I'm not quite sure what the first bullet point above means on AST but overall this is wrong and it makes me think neither of you played AST in PVP before. AST already had access to all the things you are talking about.

Macro and Gravity have always been AOE in both PVP and PVE. Neither have had a buff in how many targets they hit. The second Gravity could already be held before the patch as well. Macro did receive a 2000 healing potency buff, much needed because of how that heal functions, but Gravity was nerfed not buffed. Gravity used to inflict AOE heavy on targets for the first hit and AOE bind on the second hit. It now inflicts heavy with both hits. The bind has been replaced with an AOE stun which is only accessible through AST's limit break follow-up. The loss of 3 binds per minute in place of 1 stun every 105s is, in fact, a nerf.

AST also was already a powerhouse with access to the things mentioned. Have you never run into an AST/DRK combo and how they wipe parties, especially in Frontlines, or do you not play that mode? Yes, it was DRG or SMN and DRK at first and recently it had been AST or RPR and DRK as the CC combo to look out for.

The only things I could entertain as "buffs into the stratosphere" for AST are its new teleport and its new set of cards. The Lord of Crowns gives a debuff that increases damage taken by 10% which is just broken on top of the limit break that gives the party a (decaying) 30% damage increase. But that is only broken to parties who can capitalize on the limited time power.

The teleport could be argued to be overpowered, but in my more honest opinion, it only brings AST up to standard with all the other jobs which each have a movement tool whereas only AST lacked one before. This can be compared to how jobs who had previously lacked a personal heal/shield in PVP have now just received--BLM or GNB for example--leaving really only BRD without a heal/shield. Both these things are purposed to bring them up to a standard competitive level against their opponents. And that brings me to my next point:

The loss of class identity:
- My beloved Red Mage
- GNB Junction

GNB's loss of Draw and Junction was simply what I just mentioned: to balance its healing against the other jobs. Imagine being a job whose healing is based on whether there is a healer on the map. Imagine being a tank whose defensive buffs are based on whether there is another tank on the map. Now imagine how D&J just came off cooldown in a fight, and now you have to target the healer, draw from them, then heal before switching back to you your main focus.

Heart of Corundum as both a defensive buff and a heal is much healthier for GNB that D&J, but with that said, I don't think they needed to get rid of D&J. They could have had both. And it was indeed a treasured callback to FF8.

RDM suffered from an aura that could be seen two screens away giving away its position. Even though the class was visible, it was considerably overpowered and we didn't ever talk enough about it.

Freely accessible healing or attack stances. Gap closer and jump back. Melee combo had separate stacking DOTs. Resolution was a choice between AOE bind or AOE silence. Frazzle or Magick Barrier. And all that atop of a fast gameplay where it can be near or far in an instant without losing uptime because it has both ranged and melee combos while most jobs have combos of only one aspect (say, melee), and the other aspect (ranged) is only accessible through 10s, 15s, and 20s cooldowns.

New RDM feels a bit less flavorful and is definitively not as powerful as before, but is by no means weak or useless. It still fulfills its niche, sends phys ranged and casters running and is the most fast-paced of all the ranged.

[Valence]

New RDM is actually meta now, unlike before. It follows behind AST and some tanks.
AST was already meta, now it's just outright broken on top of it. And the free teleport, it certainly didn't have it before, which on top of self healing and mitigation, makes it almost impossible to kill. I am not sure what you're on about teleport moves. SCH didn't have one either, and a lot of ranged didn't as well. A good amount of jobs also only have gap closers (SMN, tanks, SAM...), which is not the same thing at all. The RPR kind of teleport is the most powerful you can find in the current roster.

[FatCatEnjoyer]

for my first bullet point, see this: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...mb-question%29

speaking for strictly fl only: ast's dash made its already low risk gameplay even less low risk with movement and shields, and can potentially add another 8k ontop of their existing burst. i know macro and double cast were essentially unchanged (except for the bind) but I don't really care about what they already had, its what they added on top of a really well rounded kit
in cc: in a mirror match, you better hope that your astro is better than the mirror astro or youre going to get destroyed.

also, I never had a grievance about the power level of rdm or gnb, i think theyre fine (i miss my stance switches really bad though),only that they have less flavor than before

actually, there *was* a buff, didnt gravity go from 5y to 8y? or am i misremembering

[BlueMageQuina]

...

Thanks for replying so I could understand. I thought there was something missing from what was meant by the first point. I don't know if that's a bug or not but I do think it may be intended because of how that heal functions. I'm not sure we want 3 ASTs all returning full heals at once in PVP. If that is indeed the intention, they should write it in the tooltips. And yes, I know your grievance wasn't the power of RDM or GNB, but the flavor. I was only explaining what I conclude with why flavor was changed given the evidence.

As for 5y to 8y, I can't find the tooltips. You're probably right then. I knew I should have screenshotted everything before the patch.

...

I didn't say whatever you just typed. I said AST lacked a movement tool before and that most every class had one before. I did not say that everyone has specifically a teleport, or a jump back, or a gap closer. I was stating that most jobs have *something* for movement but AST had nothing. For example, SCH has Expedient, BRD has its Repelling Shot, DNC has En Avant, BLM has Aetherial Manipulation, WHM has Seraph Strike, SGE has Ikarus, RDM has both Corps a Corps and Displacement, SMN has Crimson Cyclone, and PCT has Smudge. That's all ranged but MCH to your discredit ("a lot of ranged didn't as well"). Poor MCH, if you count it which I don't, only has Scattergun. So what are *you* on about?

"A good amount of jobs only have gap closers" -- this is leading to my point; You agree with me, a good amount of jobs have *movement tools* regardless how that tool is expressed in their kit. That's what I was arguing.

Lastly, I did say I could see the argument how AST's teleport is overpowered. "The only things I could entertain as 'buffs into the stratosphere for' AST are its new teleport and..." I do see how AST has an overloaded kit and a teleport is too much. It could have received a sprint like SCH or nothing at all.

Did you read anything I initially wrote at all or are you just here to rage?

[Valence]

I didn't say whatever you just typed. I said AST lacked a movement tool before and that most every class had one before. I did not say that everyone has specifically a teleport, or a jump back, or a gap closer. I was stating that most jobs have *something* for movement but AST had nothing. For example, SCH has Expedient, BRD has its Repelling Shot, DNC has En Avant, BLM has Aetherial Manipulation, WHM has Seraph Strike, SGE has Ikarus, RDM has both Corps a Corps and Displacement, SMN has Crimson Cyclone, and PCT has Smudge. That's all ranged but MCH to your discredit ("a lot of ranged didn't as well"). Poor MCH, if you count it which I don't, only has Scattergun. So what are *you* on about?

"A good amount of jobs only have gap closers" -- this is leading to my point; You agree with me, a good amount of jobs have *movement tools* regardless how that tool is expressed in their kit. That's what I was arguing.

Lastly, I did say I could see the argument how AST's teleport is overpowered. "The only things I could entertain as 'buffs into the stratosphere for' AST are its new teleport and..." I do see how AST has an overloaded kit and a teleport is too much. It could have received a sprint like SCH or nothing at all.

Did you read anything I initially wrote at all or are you just here to rage?

If you're about to quote yourself, have the honesty to quote the full line: "The teleport could be argued to be overpowered, but in my more honest opinion, it only brings AST up to standard with all the other jobs which each have a movement tool whereas only AST lacked one before."

You admit that the teleport can be overpowered, BUT, and emphasis on BUT, you say it brings AST up to standard with other jobs, which means you're okay with it. Don't act surprised when people call you out on it?
On top of it, conflating gap closers with a teleport and say that all jobs are on that standards is disingenuous as well. Imagine comparing one way gap closers (most of them being only at the enemy) to that teleport?

Either way, if it was badly framed and just misunderstanding, then glad we do agree.

[ChrysOCE]

New RDM is actually meta now, unlike before. It follows behind AST and some tanks.
AST was already meta, now it's just outright broken on top of it. And the free teleport, it certainly didn't have it before, which on top of self healing and mitigation, makes it almost impossible to kill. I am not sure what you're on about teleport moves. SCH didn't have one either, and a lot of ranged didn't as well. A good amount of jobs also only have gap closers (SMN, tanks, SAM...), which is not the same thing at all. The RPR kind of teleport is the most powerful you can find in the current roster.

(For Frontlines) RDM was already meta beforehand. Just hardly anyone bothered to play it properly. I got my Hand of Mercy on RDM. New RDM is awful. Gone are any tactical decisions; do you bind or silence an enemy, do you go for damage or shield. no choices now, can't have that. they didn't need to change RDM like this. All they had to do was make the ring invisible to enemies.
i hate what they have done to PVP with these changes. i'm glad i got my title, cause i doubt i will play as much as i did.

[Shikiseki]

Ugh I hate how my prediction was right that Viper/Picto weren't just filler job kits but were pointing into the new direction PvP skillsets will develop: lite versions of PvE skillsets where you get 1 button to shoot your 6k potency attack with a generic stun if you're lucky... But the flavour of the month was picked to be guard disruption.

Not only that but the creative "fantasy" part is slowly even bleeding out from the last bastion of fun unique job design this game had it's quite sad.
But one thing in particular raised a couple of questions to me at least:

Much like with PvE actions at the release of Dawntrail, we have introduced several new PvP actions, and made adjustments to pre-existing ones to better highlight the unique aspects of each job. We've also made changes to certain jobs' mechanics to provide players with a more enjoyable gaming experience.

- (PLD) why is Paladin better in attacking than actually protecting their allies?
- (WAR) why is Primal Wrath getting a bind and not the actual chain attack Blota?
- (GNB) why was their draw and junction gimmick removed which was their entire thing they were based from?
- (WHM) is Glare 4 follow up the best a White Mage can come up with?
- (AST) was the bind effect when being hit by Gravity twice too realistic? RNG cards too unique? A skill called Oracle nothing more than a stun?
- (SGE) was being hit by double phlegma the only defining thing for a Sage?
- (MNK) what exactly is a close ranged martial artist for you in this game?
- (SAM) why is Mangetsu and Oka the same now? Just to give the new skill a secondary new effect?
- (DRG) is a simple 10k potency attack all that defines Dragoons now?
- (VPR) why is a PvE lite version of a job allowed here, especially now that their entire ignoring guard niche was distributed to almost all the other jobs? What are they supposed to do better than others?
- (BRD) why is the buffing specialist get a MP depleting attack? Is their musical performance that bad that it mentally drains the enemy?
- (MCH) Why is it trying to imitate PvE burst meta? Did the debuff plugin on Aerther Mortar into a DLC?
- (BLM) did you really have to turn Black Mage into a weird Aetherhue only Pictomancer in PvP too?
- (SMN) was a short cone aoe stun the best SMN could come up with? Not even an upheaval like Arcadion Boss 1?
- (RDM) is Red Mage defined by their magic fencing skills now? Why is their signature spell "Doublecast" so underutilized?
- (PCT) was this job really designed for CC and not primarily for Frontline to place more attention the job?

Exceptions:
- (DRK) fine - HP eater attacks ignore defenses usually to begin with so it's thematically sound
- (SCH) Chain Stratagem is actually thematically sound. Summon Seraph being a 60s normal skill copy now that is almost as slow as some limit breaks is not really justified
- (RPR) honestly the most natural extention of the job and something I thought everyone else would get
- (NIN) same as RPR it feels natural, even though Ninja really does everything even a guard crush but still on brand
- (DNC) The solo step upgrade is a very crafty way to reward a good dance partner performance

I'm seriously asking this cause I do not have any logical reasoning for most of those changes. If this is what they come up with after the people ranting about boring job design, 8.0 is destined to be the same old with just more empty promises thrown into the growing pile of lies

[Mawlzy]

This seems to be the theme of the 7.1 PvP patch notes. The claims made by SE as to what they were trying to do with the changes, and how the changes work/appear in practice, seem mostly unrelated.

[Mawlzy]

This doesn't even look optimized to me, but we just had a silent premade on FL of AST/BRD/MCH/BLM cut through the opposition quite impressively (all had BH5 within 4 minutes). Plus I've noticed enemy ASTs getting tagged more so I guess those who are trying are figuring this out a bit.

I'm still not ready to assert that DRK is dead since I'm pretty sure the 7.0 DRK commanders are still playing CC, although it's currently pretty useless. The power of AST alone does suggest we've had a major meta shift. But unfortunately I suspect organized light parties will be able to exploit the massive skill disparity on the field to create lop-sided matches, as before.

I suspect the animation lock and crowd control mean tanks can't play a frontline role anymore. Playing the same style as before the changes on WAR my typical deaths went from 0/1 to 4 (in before "skill issue") and that seems to be reflected in the performance of others playing the role. If my team is pushing it works great as a pursuit assassin, and in stand-offs I'm having success by leaping in whenever Purify is up and hoping it gets me out again. I can't figure out how to really burst, because any lingering leads to immobilization and death. Again, may well be I'm simply not good enough.

Anyone have any info on JP matches? Whatever the meta converges to will presumably show up there first.

[ovIm]

This seems to be the theme of the 7.1 PvP patch notes. The claims made by SE as to what they were trying to do with the changes, and how the changes work/appear in practice, seem mostly unrelated.

This is very much the theme with a lot of CS3 class adjustments, but its especially noticeable in this patches PVP adjustments. The "throw things at wall and see what sticks" approach they seem to have semi-recently adopted just reeks of incompetence, missing vision, and a lack of knowledge about their own game.