Still no auto-combo for 123 on old jobs.

[Kandraxx]

Consolidating the 123s while NOT adding any new skills would be the entire point here. The point is not removing 123s because they're hard to execute, the point is that it's a pain to fit them on the keyboard in a way that makes sense, while still being able to fit the other 25-30 skills somewhere and all that in a way that still allows you to move your character and won't make your hand ache after 15 minutes.

Besides that, I really do feel like that this game has already reached it's button count <> game complexity point, possibly long ago. There's no need to have 50 skills that do nothing but combo'ing into each other with ''10 added Potency''. I mean, I really do like FFXIV otherwise I wouldn't be here playing the game and doing posts trying to make it better but I'm not oblivious to the fact that the game mechanics/job mechanics/enemy mechanics are actually way simpler than what even Vanilla WoW had in 2004. Which might be fair seeing that it's a console game that needs to be playable while lying on the couch with a controller.

[GoatOfWar]

Consolidating the 123s while NOT adding any new skills would be the entire point here. The point is not removing 123s because they're hard to execute, the point is that it's a pain to fit them on the keyboard in a way that makes sense, while still being able to fit the other 25-30 skills somewhere and all that in a way that still allows you to move your character and won't make your hand ache after 15 minutes.

Besides that, I really do feel like that this game has already reached it's button count <> game complexity point, possibly long ago. There's no need to have 50 skills that do nothing but combo'ing into each other with ''10 added Potency''. I mean, I really do like FFXIV otherwise I wouldn't be here playing the game and doing posts trying to make it better but I'm not oblivious to the fact that the game mechanics/job mechanics/enemy mechanics are actually way simpler than what even Vanilla WoW had in 2004. Which might be fair seeing that it's a console game that needs to be playable while lying on the couch with a controller.

People like you genuinely leave me fucking baffled.
The combat is fucking braindead already. How boring do you want the game to be?
Why not just play a mobile game with an autoplay feature if you hate pressing buttons in a videogame so much?

[Kandraxx]

People like you genuinely leave me fucking baffled.
The combat is fucking braindead already. How boring do you want the game to be?
Why not just play a mobile game with an autoplay feature if you hate pressing buttons in a videogame so much?

What is exciting or engaging about pressing 30 buttons in a fixed rotation that all do nothing but damage? It doesn't make a game that has maxed out it's core complexity more compelling to play. There is an exact reason why it's possible to clear the games hardest content with 1-button-hacks. What is ''fing braindead'' is not removing mundane/nonsensical buttons but the game design itself. Open world basically doesn't exist and all the mainstream instanced content is ''dodge orange/watch arms + gimmick mechanic X'' inside a tiny box. So either you are like me and found your love in side content or really good friends keep you logging on or you probably already left for greener grass elsewhere.

I mean, if you, others or Yoshida himself really feel like that a job must be stuffed with 40 clockwork-like skills, no matter how nonsensical and 'dial a combo' mechanics for the game to not enter mobile territory then something is fundamentally wrong.

[Shurrikhan]

People like you genuinely leave me fucking baffled.
The combat is fucking braindead already. How boring do you want the game to be?
Why not just play a mobile game with an autoplay feature if you hate pressing buttons in a videogame so much?

>> "I don't want to lose comfortable and more reactive button-space for my more interesting forms of agency just to support an absurd arbitrary need to cycle keys across what is in essence just Broil-part-1, Broil-part-2, and Broil-part-3. If that then puts due emphasis on how braindead the actual underlying game is, all the better; then we'll have the leverage to actually make a difference where it matters, which isn't just by needlessly playing fall-away-platforms with our filler action for 2 out of 5 roles."

<< "If you so hate complexity in hitting 3 different buttons just to continue the same action, why don't you just play an idle game?!"

...???

I mean, if you... really feel like that a job must be stuffed with 40 clockwork-like skills, no matter how nonsensical and 'dial a combo' mechanics for the game to not enter mobile territory then something is fundamentally wrong.

I don't much plan to consolidate anything, especially if we just get some basic agency increases to make combos less purely bloat/waste --I just think people should be allowed to do as they please in that regard-- but I have to agree with this.

If a job has 36 skills then its skills should be designed like SCH (ignoring its boring as sin rotation). Not like VPR or SAM

Having 30+ skills that are all a fixed rotation+damage oGCD’s is part of what’s wrong with modern class design

Sure, I guess, but whether CDs are fixed or not has nothing to do with button consolidation.

Nor is a design like SCH's, if applied to a DPS, going to be any less fixed than any other DPS's design. Gauges, for instance, are ultimately just CDs that start on cooldown and punish you for downtime.

[Supersnow845]

>> "I don't want to lose comfortable and more reactive button-space for my more interesting forms of agency just to support an absurd arbitrary need to cycle keys across what is in essence just Broil-part-1, Broil-part-2, and Broil-part-3."

<< "Well why don't you just play an idle game?!"

...




Sure, I guess, but whether CDs are fixed or not has nothing to do with button consolidation.

Nor is a design like SCH's, if applied to a DPS, going to be any less fixed than any other DPS's design. Gauges, for instance, are ultimately just CDs that start on cooldown and punish you for downtime.

That’s implying that a “DPS SCH” would have all its disconnected skills just be damage. There is a lot of design you could play around with for a DPS SCH if things weren’t so rigid on the combat side. Utility, augmentation of different paths that last indefinitely till you swap them opposing powerful skills that put each other on CD and have distinctive niches. Alternating between buff heavy and selfish based on party composition

Basically a job that has a lot of options and tunes those options to the fight itself sorta like how SCH plays its opposing CD’s based on what it needs at the time rather than the current DPS design of trying to fit an ultra rigid rotation into the fight with minimal deviance

[Shurrikhan]

That’s implying that a “DPS SCH” would have all its disconnected skills just be damage. There is a lot of design you could play around with for a DPS SCH if things weren’t so rigid on the combat side. Utility, augmentation of different paths that last indefinitely till you swap them opposing powerful skills that put each other on CD and have distinctive niches. Alternating between buff heavy and selfish based on party composition

Basically a job that has a lot of options and tunes those options to the fight itself sorta like how SCH plays its opposing CD’s based on what it needs at the time rather than the current DPS design of trying to fit an ultra rigid rotation into the fight with minimal deviance

I mean, if you could sample something like that, I'd probably be all for it. It's worked, more or less, for a few DPS specs in WoW, for instance (and no, I'm not talking about Aug).

The issue, though, is that I suspect that has more to do with the combat content themselves. Were their fights' profiles were as unvaried as XIV's, they would likewise fall into a perfectly strict obvious(ly) optimal rotation.

XIV combat is simple first and foremost because that's all its combat content incentivizes (and thereby [or, and ultimately] allows for).

• We don't have interesting disengagement tools because we scarcely have any disengagement. We don't have any suppression tools because there's nothing to interestingly suppress nor desire to allow that.
• We don't have interesting support tools because there's no use cases for them that wouldn't just be subsumed into rotational or obligatory events of damage increase.
• We don't have meaningful DPS-CD holding in part, yes, because some would then be worse hit than others (especially in PuGs) for needing to hold CDs but mostly because there are scarcely any DPS checks worth holding CDs for.
• And, similarly, we don't have anything but scheduled tank and healer CDs since there's nothing that would incentivize their use earlier while still allowing later at-cost recovery, at least outside of obviously bad play.

[GoatOfWar]

>> "I don't want to lose comfortable and more reactive button-space for my more interesting forms of agency just to support an absurd arbitrary need to cycle keys across what is in essence just Broil-part-1, Broil-part-2, and Broil-part-3. If that then puts due emphasis on how braindead the actual underlying game is, all the better; then we'll have the leverage to actually make a difference where it matters, which isn't just by needlessly playing fall-away-platforms with our filler action for 2 out of 5 roles."

<< "If you so hate complexity in hitting 3 different buttons just to continue the same action, why don't you just play an idle game?!"

...???



I don't much plan to consolidate anything, especially if we just get some basic agency increases to make combos less purely bloat/waste --I just think people should be allowed to do as they please in that regard-- but I have to agree with this.




Sure, I guess, but whether CDs are fixed or not has nothing to do with button consolidation.

Nor is a design like SCH's, if applied to a DPS, going to be any less fixed than any other DPS's design. Gauges, for instance, are ultimately just CDs that start on cooldown and punish you for downtime.

Why are you pretending that this is only about the 123 button consolidation?
It's about the bizarre desire to simplify things *even further*.

[Shurrikhan]

Why are you pretending that this is only about the 123 button consolidation?
It's about the bizarre desire to simplify things *even further*.

It's very literally about combo consolidation:

So, came back to FF14 recently, now 7.1 happened and there’s still no option to put 123 combos most jobs are plagued with on one button. I know that this somehow is and seemingly forever has to be a very sad topic in this game that’s being discussed dating back years and years if you google it and I don’t even know why. It already exists in the game officially and only needs to be copy-pasted over from the PvP spell book.

RDM is probably the biggest offender here. A situational melee 123 on a caster, that takes 3 semi-good keys (because you still use it regularly and possibly during movement). You will never use it outside of specific conditions, you will never use only step 1, you will never start with step 2, you will never use 1-2-1, it makes no sense that it’s 3 different skills.

I know that when you’re on PC you can kinda help yourself but that just feels wrong.

Make it an OPTION, put it in the accessibility options if you absolutely have to so a tiny minority can continue to pretend that this game is esports and the possibility of fumbling inputs due to overbloated and suboptimal bindings should be a major part of the PvE experience.

Thank you SE.

Even if we were to assume that the OP did not mean what they clearly said, intended to expand beyond the bounds mentioned, or were otherwise conspiratorially trying to simplify the game despite their many complaints about it being too simple (and masking this through button-bloat)...

...we'd be left with, at most, the option to make other mutually exclusive and/or "unlocked" actions share a key. ...Oh no?

[GoatOfWar]

It's very literally about combo consolidation:
Even if we were to assume that the OP did not mean what they clearly said, intended to expand beyond the bounds mentioned, or were otherwise conspiratorially trying to simplify the game despite their many complaints about it being too simple (and masking this through button-bloat)...

...we'd be left with, at most, the option to make other mutually exclusive and/or "unlocked" actions share a key. ...Oh no?

Am i really going to have to explain why i don't understand why people ask for further simplification when the game is already oversimplistic?
Do you really want me to go over why the game is already overly simplistic, and asking for further simplification is fucking weird to me?
Just fuck off at this point. I don't want to talk to you. I never made it *just* about the 123.

[Shurrikhan]

Am i really going to have to explain why i don't understand why people ask for further simplification when the game is already oversimplistic?

What do you see as complexity?

If you, right now, could take every sequential action already consolidated and re-split them, would the game be more enjoyably "complex" for your doing so?

Heck, we could roll back upgrades taking the same key while we're at it, so we have to swap Gyofu and Hakaze, Fuga and Fuko, based on level, just as we had to do for Stone III/IV, etc. Would that likewise make the game more enjoyably "complex"?

For my part, complexity is in the decision-making.

• If one wanted to mudra out every complex action available (such that Seigan is, say, [Focus]->[Snow]->[Wind] in rapid succession between GCDs), I couldn't care less that they'd then be able to do that in fewer buttons via those combinations.
• Similarly, if one wanted to perform back-to-back Full Thrust combos off a single key, as compared to alternating Chaos and Full or spamming Chaos, I couldn't care less if they wanted to devote more buttons to a script that would reduce button presses.

What matters to me is purely whether there is a reward for holding Seigan, occasionally breaking from the standard rotational fluff, etc -- the actual nuance, the actual strategy, the actual opportunities for ingenuity -- not the button-count or restricting one's ability to customize said button-use. None of that is affected by the option for consolidation of mutually exclusive actions (or, like Disembowel after Vorpal, what would be mutually exclusive within any remotely proper play).

I never made it *just* about the 123.

Which makes it a really odd point of discussion to go at emotional length into when replying to someone who explicitly made it *just* about the 12(3).