The Formula won't change

[Turtledeluxe]

Gonna be frank...I know you put a lot of thought into what became several posts' worth of ideas, but I stopped reading after this first sentence. Attempting to use the phrase "maintenance mode" on a game that just put out a major expansion with ~60 hours of content, plus new raids, alliance raids, beast tribes, exploratory zone, etc. all either since released or coming in the next patches effectively discredits anything else you might want to say (especially when you couple it with the developers having another 10-year-plan in mind). Drop the buzzwords that have no connection to reality and just post honest thoughts.

This logic doesn't hold up. Just because a game is releasing content == it isn't in maintenance mode? Perhaps you would care to clarify your definition of maintenance mode. I think people use the term differently. I don't think OP is arguing the game is to the point where it doesn't receive updates, they're just saying the team likely doesn't have the resources, desire or incentive to do more than the bare minimum, which they've done for years already.

Like you literally responded to them with the formula
.

[RoboYumi]

Maintenance mode literally means the game's only maintenance is server upkeep. The game is physically maintained, but no longer actively developed or built on ONLY maintained.
The team absolutely has the resources, but theyre using them poorly and arent incentivized to do better while the higher ups are pulling Yoshi-P's ear to focus on anything but the sole reason SQE isn't being sold off

[Striker44]

This logic doesn't hold up. Just because a game is releasing content == it isn't in maintenance mode? Perhaps you would care to clarify your definition of maintenance mode. I think people use the term differently. I don't think OP is arguing the game is to the point where it doesn't receive updates, they're just saying the team likely doesn't have the resources, desire or incentive to do more than the bare minimum, which they've done for years already.

Like you literally responded to them with the formula
.

Umm...the logic holds up entirely. Yes, a game that is releasing new content is by definition not in "maintenance mode." It's not a "what I want to call it" vs. "what you want to call it." It's what the phrase means for MMO's - a game in "maintenance mode" has reached its final/finished state. No new content is being developed for it, no remaining bugs are being fixed, etc.. All that's happening is the servers remain up for people to play, and repeatable events (e.g. annual/seasonal events) may continue to run. But no new events or content of any sort is being created. The fact that the formula is still being followed with dozens of hours of new content being produced objectively means the game is nowhere near "maintenance mode" (and calling a complete new expansion with a full agenda of patch content over the next several years the "bare minimum" is rather insulting toward the developers, no?).

[Sinstrel]

All that's happening is the servers remain up for people to play, and repeatable events (e.g. annual/seasonal events) may continue to run..

I agree with you about the hyperbole about the game being in "maintenance mode" when it isn't actually. But I think a lot of that sentiment comes from Yoshi & Co sticking to the set formula so stubbornly that much of the new content being release feels very similar to old content. Similar to the degree that it feels like its just the same repeatable/annual events, thus the "maintenance mode" hyperbole.

[Turtledeluxe]

Umm...the logic holds up entirely. Yes, a game that is releasing new content is by definition not in "maintenance mode." It's not a "what I want to call it" vs. "what you want to call it." It's what the phrase means for MMO's - a game in "maintenance mode" has reached its final/finished state. No new content is being developed for it, no remaining bugs are being fixed, etc.. All that's happening is the servers remain up for people to play, and repeatable events (e.g. annual/seasonal events) may continue to run. But no new events or content of any sort is being created. The fact that the formula is still being followed with dozens of hours of new content being produced objectively means the game is nowhere near "maintenance mode" (and calling a complete new expansion with a full agenda of patch content over the next several years the "bare minimum" is rather insulting toward the developers, no?).

Yes, that is the traditional use of the word. Hence why I am pointing out, I don't think that is what OP is actually arguing despite invoking the term. The statement you quoted flatly says the game has up to 3 expansions to live. Essentially what I'm saying is you're telling them their thoughts don't matter because of semantics. Which isn't useful imo because the post itself is about the formula not changing, on which you and OP seemingly agree.

As far as the MSQ being the bare minimum, yes I do think about that DT. I was moreso talking ahout the patch cycle there and the way they stagger updates, but the MSQ didn't exactly light the world on fire with story or gameplay.

The game isn’t in maintenance mode. The greatest overarching problem with the game that ties pretty much all our criticisms about content cadence, job design, balance and thematic direction of the MSQ is that simply the devs are too slow to pivot on anything and the slow cadence that seems out of line with the feedback offered makes people tired and frustrated because content coming out that doesn’t align with what people want to paying customers that feels the same as getting no content

True. I think it all goes in a circle ultimately where players can only speculate SE is not re investing back into the game. As far as pivoting based on feedback, there's a lack of transparency as to where the feedback is even coming from or what it's based on. Instead of throwing players under the bus, I'd rather know how many players interacted with Eureka and got their relic etc. I'd like to see it updated to smooth out well agreed upon friction is the content. As far as jobs, it's a long and entangled issue, but it's precisely the same. The devs sort of blamed players for VPR updates but then came around and said it was their plan regardless. So is it really players changing jobs?

[Valence]

True. I think it all goes in a circle ultimately where players can only speculate SE is not re investing back into the game. As far as pivoting based on feedback, there's a lack of transparency as to where the feedback is even coming from or what it's based on. Instead of throwing players under the bus, I'd rather know how many players interacted with Eureka and got their relic etc. I'd like to see it updated to smooth out well agreed upon friction is the content. As far as jobs, it's a long and entangled issue, but it's precisely the same. The devs sort of blamed players for VPR updates but then came around and said it was their plan regardless. So is it really players changing jobs?

Small tangent on Eureka, I played through the whole and experienced most of what it had to bring, specifically at release. I hated the content (to a point where I had to make it bearable by listening to most of the history of rome podcast... stellar podcast btw, but it should tell you the amount of hours involved just grinding out), but I still did it, precisely because I had no idea what was ahead. When Anemos came out, I had no idea what it would be inside, so I went in. I kept going because I had no idea how the next area would be, and the next. I had no idea how the relic steps would be or evolve. I had no idea on how much story i'd miss out or not. I had no idea that BA was waiting for us in the last area as well until it released. I farmed my relic, farmed my armors, my relic was actually BiS in Pyros already because SE couldn't balance MCH savage itemization for shit. Same for Bozja, and I'm glad I went through its slightly less egregious but equally if not more boring grind because there was CLL and Dalriada on the way at their endgames, and more story to feed on.

All of this to say, I'd be actually counted as a player that went to interact with 99% of Eureka and 90% of Bozja (I didn't do DRS, sue me), in spite of my overall dissatisfaction with the content. I think the numbers would be deceiving for that reason.

[Turtledeluxe]

All of this to say, I'd be actually counted as a player that went to interact with 99% of Eureka and 90% of Bozja (I didn't do DRS, sue me), in spite of my overall dissatisfaction with the content. I think the numbers would be deceiving for that reason.

Yes, that's why I said I'd be curious to know of those that actually did it (not just haters of new content), what were the points of friction? Instead of revising, they just made a 2nd attempt with Bozja, and then came to the conclusion it just isn't worth doing at all. I don't think either field operation is perfect, and I've completed all steps excerpt DRS. I still see huge potential in the idea, especially since this game's weakest point is casual widescale content players can do together. I wasn't around for the marketing, but if they were pushing story and relics, those are just side components imo. The main thing about the field operations is making combat content everyone can do together in an open setting.

And maybe it's anecdotal but I feel like all I ever see is people asking for this (give us casual combat content), and it's like they don't even know it's already kinda in the game. Maybe it's the difficulty or the grind, I'm unsure. Maybe the game doesn't push it hard enough. I'm optimistic about the upcoming zone.

Ideally in an MMO you would not need segmented off MMO play. It would just be in the world. But here we are. And although I am aware both zones are fate centric like the base game, they do have other components and systems that make them slightly more interesting than generic open world play.

[OgruMogru]

Ideally in an MMO you would not need segmented off MMO play. It would just be in the world. But here we are. And although I am aware both zones are fate centric like the base game, they do have other components and systems that make them slightly more interesting than generic open world play.

This is a huge part of the problem for me! Imo all map zones should function more like Eureka/Bozja as a baseline. I enjoyed both iterations of the idea and was hoping, as with all things, that exploratory content would have been continually refined instead of just shelved for a whole expac. Bozja content was great but I found the subject matter and story delivery very dry - a personal problem I have with Matsuno's work although I love the pomp and weight of the dialogue in the ivalice 24 mans] - it also didn't help that the whole map was a desolate, craggy warzone. The sequestering off of these cool open world systems into their own separate content really kills any incentive to commit to them in any meaningful way even though they provide a far more structured and integrated experience than the baseline overworld. Bit of a waste tbh.

[Turtledeluxe]

This is a huge part of the problem for me! Imo all map zones should function more like Eureka/Bozja as a baseline. I enjoyed both iterations of the idea and was hoping, as with all things, that exploratory content would have been continually refined instead of just shelved for a whole expac. Bozja content was great but I found the subject matter and story delivery very dry - a personal problem I have with Matsuno's work although I love the pomp and weight of the dialogue in the ivalice 24 mans] - it also didn't help that the whole map was a desolate, craggy warzone. The sequestering off of these cool open world systems into their own separate content really kills any incentive to commit to them in any meaningful way even though they provide a far more structured and integrated experience than the baseline overworld. Bit of a waste tbh.

I much preferred the tone and setting of Eureka myself. But I'm very optimistic ahout zone 3 based on my own experience. I've converted several of my friends to relics hunters (I did both post EW, across all DCs actually and bith both zones were very axtive) and they successfully completed the zones within the last year. Bozja has been a hotspot for leveling. I think players have become more familiar with the zones retroactively vs less, although only SE would know that. I'm assuming my observations are on the money or else they wouldn't even be doing a third zone. Hopefully they use the opportunity to do something inviting that excites players across a wide skill spectrum.

And I say that because I see they're doing other new things. I see the Choatic raid and the lifestyle content. But both of those have their own drawbacks in terms of being wide appeal, cooperative, long term, etc. Exploratory zones can fill that gap.

[Supersnow845]

Small tangent on Eureka, I played through the whole and experienced most of what it had to bring, specifically at release. I hated the content (to a point where I had to make it bearable by listening to most of the history of rome podcast... stellar podcast btw, but it should tell you the amount of hours involved just grinding out), but I still did it, precisely because I had no idea what was ahead. When Anemos came out, I had no idea what it would be inside, so I went in. I kept going because I had no idea how the next area would be, and the next. I had no idea how the relic steps would be or evolve. I had no idea on how much story i'd miss out or not. I had no idea that BA was waiting for us in the last area as well until it released. I farmed my relic, farmed my armors, my relic was actually BiS in Pyros already because SE couldn't balance MCH savage itemization for shit. Same for Bozja, and I'm glad I went through its slightly less egregious but equally if not more boring grind because there was CLL and Dalriada on the way at their endgames, and more story to feed on.

All of this to say, I'd be actually counted as a player that went to interact with 99% of Eureka and 90% of Bozja (I didn't do DRS, sue me), in spite of my overall dissatisfaction with the content. I think the numbers would be deceiving for that reason.

However think of it from square enix’s perspective oh this one. The game doesn’t have a lot of content that 100% isn’t required and most of it has pretty poor retention (variant or EO for example). Why would field content be an anomaly that’s basically “hate played” when no other optional content shows this sort of retention. And let’s say the answer to that question is the relic……..okay isn’t that the purpose of the relics, to draw people to content, it’s not like EW’s tomestone relics did anything to incentivise anything considering you physically cannot incentivise roulettes in this game any more

If field content was say “60% liked it, 40% hate played it” it’s still a successful anomaly because no other optional content gets hate played, they just die on launch