Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

[Supersnow845]

BW is also 2000 potency of healing on a single target.

When being hit by a flat tankbuster it’s mitigation effect is weaker than the others (though the 40%’s have largely mitigated this issue and holmgang covers the rest) but it’s better at shrugging off autos as 2000 potency is nothing to scoff at considering HS the next strongest is 1200

In single target raid situations I’d say holmgang is the most problematic tank CD followed by guardian, after that it would be great nebula then HS and BW.

In cleave situations BW is the obvious worst offender followed by guardian then roughly the same order from there

Pure healing is more problematic than mitigation but incredibly strong mitigation that allows other pure healing to catch up can also be problematic

[Carighan]

The invulns I really don't get. I understand that the fight designers probably asked them to make them all 10s so that they can more readily plan for tank invulns, but then they promptly didn't plan for the CD, which makes me wonder what happened.

They were so much cooler when they had different durations and limitations. Paladin with its huge CD, Warrior self-rooting, Gunbreaker cardiovascular health check, Dark Knight having to die. They kept three of these, and removed one. One could easily argue they weren't well-balanced before, but making it worse in balance is so not helping... If at least the fight designers had then utilized the same 10s duration meaningfully I would say it was maybe a worthwhile tradeoff, but that's not something they did!

[Rithy255]

BW is also 2000 potency of healing on a single target.

When being hit by a flat tankbuster it’s mitigation effect is weaker than the others (though the 40%’s have largely mitigated this issue and holmgang covers the rest) but it’s better at shrugging off autos as 2000 potency is nothing to scoff at considering HS the next strongest is 1200

In single target raid situations I’d say holmgang is the most problematic tank CD followed by guardian, after that it would be great nebula then HS and BW.

In cleave situations BW is the obvious worst offender followed by guardian then roughly the same order from there

Pure healing is more problematic than mitigation but incredibly strong mitigation that allows other pure healing to catch up can also be problematic

It's 1600 potency, hs is 1000 (i don't know where you got 1200 from), Both are also less stronger the healer potency healing because everyone always forgets healers have a passive that boosts their healing.

Pure healing generally isn't the full "issue" here, it's mostly the mitigation, not to say that they can't reduce healing on tank cooldowns, but the way to nerf tanks wouldn't be just to remove self healing it would be to reduce some self sustain and some mitigations, even give healers better & stronger target mits (like upping aqua veil's mit and or duration) to give healers more to give to tanks.

[Supersnow845]

It's 1600 potency, hs is 1000 (i don't know where you got 1200 from), Both are also less stronger the healer potency healing because everyone always forgets healers have a passive that boosts their healing.

Pure healing generally isn't the full "issue" here, it's mostly the mitigation, not to say that they can't reduce healing on tank cooldowns, but the way to nerf tanks wouldn't be just to remove self healing it would be to reduce some self sustain and some mitigations, even give healers better & stronger target mits (like upping aqua veil's mit and or duration) to give healers more to give to tanks.

It’s a 400 potency shield and 4 400 potency heals which is 2000 (or about 1300 healer potency), that’s still stronger than almost all the healer heals

Besides guardian which is problematic for the reasons I explained (it’s basically a second invuln) the bigger problem is pure healing because without a healer your HP should be on a downward slope, you shouldn’t have enough healing to outheal incoming damage as a tank

[CKNovel]

If BW's shield is a heal then The Blackest Night is a heal as well, which makes no sense.
Guardian isn't an invuln, the shield value should be around 35k HP.

I get you want to reduce tank capacities of HP recovery but going after shield&mits makes no sense, what's the motivation here?

[Supersnow845]

If BW's shield is a heal then The Blackest Night is a heal as well, which makes no sense.
Guardian isn't an invuln, the shield value should be around 35k HP.

I get you want to reduce tank capacities of HP recovery but going after shield&mits makes no sense, what's the motivation here?

I specifically didn’t go after shields and mits. The shield on BW is fine. Guardians problem is the fact that it’s a 1000 potency shield AND a 40% mitigation. Do you understand how strong 40% mitigation is. Great nebula is functionally not any better but PLD is also naturally tankier than GNB

BW’s raw healing is 1600, I have zero problem with its shield I just count it as part of the healing.

[Carighan]

If BW's shield is a heal then The Blackest Night is a heal as well, which makes no sense.

Understanding how mitigations, healing, absorbs and bladeturns and so on can be calculated as EHP isn't exactly rocket science. Sorry if it doesn't make sense to you.

[CKNovel]

I specifically didn’t go after shields and mits. The shield on BW is fine. Guardians problem is the fact that it’s a 1000 potency shield AND a 40% mitigation. Do you understand how strong 40% mitigation is. Great nebula is functionally not any better but PLD is also naturally tankier than GNB

I know it's strong, I'm just pointing out you said, and I quote you:
"(it’s basically a second invuln)"

Yes, 40% + 1K shield is strong but nowhere near a second invuln.
Just don't call it an invuln.

Understanding how mitigations, healing, absorbs and bladeturns and so on can be calculated as EHP isn't exactly rocket science. Sorry if it doesn't make sense to you.

It's true mitigation and active healing are both actors on the HP Economy but they're different actors.
If anything that plays a part on HP is a healing then dodging AoE is healing, gear's defense is healing, kiting is healing, killing the boss faster is healing.
And I'm not going to debate a meme.

[Lyth]

Healing shouldn't really be calculated as eHP, because effective health is the amount of damage you can take before dying without healing, by definition. The classical case where eHP is used is in tankbuster design, because a heal isn't going to influence whether you survive a oneshot. Flat damage reduction, percentage damage reduction, and max HP boosts are all fair game though.

There really isn't a problem with tanks having powerful personal mitigation tools, because predicting incoming personal damage to survive is exactly what tanks do. However, invulns are a problem, because they're much too accessible and often end up simplifying/bypassing proper swap technique. I would rather they just opted for a higher tier (i.e. 60-80% DR) of mitigation tools to replace the current invulns.

I can agree that the current state of tank self-sustain is excessive, but anticipating single-target damage patterns and mitigating them to survive is definitely well within the realm of tanking.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]There really isn't a problem with tanks having powerful personal mitigation tools, because predicting incoming personal damage to survive is exactly what tanks do. However, invulns are a problem, because they're much too accessible and often end up simplifying/bypassing proper swap technique. I would rather they just opted for a higher tier (i.e. 60-80% DR) of mitigation tools to replace the current invulns[...]

Probably a hot take: invulns should be a niche, not one of the standard cooldown. Say, let PLD keep their HG and delete the other 3 tank's invulns in exchange for something that's not 'an invuln'.