Feedback for SQX: The game is healthy (enough) but Spriggan world/Chaos DC is dead

[Gurgeh]

It very subjective, but cross DC chat is an absolute no no for now. That's asking too much.
All I'm proposing is:
-you scrape and export the local PFs to a central database that both DCs refer to. Thats it, that's 95% of what I'm proposing.
-The local PFs import that DB, or present it
-If you join a DC pf, it sends a signal to the DC saying 'this place is taken.
-Then it auto starts your char for DC travel 'immediately', then you have to wait the 50 minutes for that PF to fill, 'on' that server. (You don't travel last minute, and you don't travel back automatically either, in between resets.

If that's going to take them years, they should hire me. I could do it in a year. A skilled developer who knows their languages and frameworks could do that in four weeks (no QA though granted, full of bugs granted)
No way that should take them years, or their overcomplicating it, for something that is frankly so critical and can't wait for TRUE, cross DC pf.

The problem... is increased travel, and tifthe current DC travel system can take the load and maintain current DC trael times.
For the time most PFs sit waiting to fill, the 110 seconds it takes to DC travel is NOTHING if you make people do it the moment they join PF. Lets add 20 seconds for forced logff.

All yur doing is making > loggoff > DC travel>,log on automated... thats all, and sending a signal to reserve the PF place while you travel. That's it.
The rest is basic data export, and go and buy a Microsoft SQL server Data centre license. It wouldn't even need very many CPUs or mh disk space.
You just have an agent that sits on each DC/server, pretending to be a charactre on that server, reading the PF info, putting up pfs, and pretending to request places. Not much different from the crossworld infrastructure.

I refuse to believe its much more complicated than that. Yes new code, but I don't see that existing code has to change much. Unless they've coded the whole damn thing in optimised assembly withouth and object orientated approach.

[Gurgeh]

In fact... I'll gentleperson's bet you that right now, some clever modder...
Could take two seperate accounts, with a char logged onto each server, and 'clunky' version do 75% percent of what I'm saying right now, without even any access to SQXs servers.
The only problem is that only they would be able to use the service. And they'd have to sneaky leave the PF and get their char to insta join in their place. (with risk of losing the place in that fraction of a second.)
Anyone running two characters on two accounts can in fact 'ALREADY' do this. Especially with some illegal mods.
To be clear I don't' think anyone should do that, I'm making a point. If I had my way we'd all have kernel level anti cheat (implimented by Microsoft.) and I'd permanently break every third party tomorrow (I do mean every third party) and, SQX will just have to re tune the fights to a player base who's skill is no more that they can manage with Stone, Sky Sea, the in game instance recorder, and reading the chat logs between pulls before they expire.
I don't object to what people are doing. I don't blame them. It's like sports with a doping problem. And the fights are now tuned to athletes on steroids. (yes I'm sure SQXs QA's dont use them, but they are clearly not your average below median player)

[Jeeqbit]

Then it auto starts your char for DC travel 'immediately', then you have to wait the 50 minutes for that PF to fill, 'on' that server. (You don't travel last minute, and you don't travel back automatically either, in between resets.

They could probably do it that way, yes.

If that's going to take them years, they should hire me. I could do it in a year.

Same really. I doubt it would even take me a year. Where there is a will there is a way and I can think of numerous ways to do it.

I just feel like there are certain members of their team that don't have this mindset, like when their UI developer said tracking loot you've already obtained was "impossible" before implementing the "Obtained" thing shortly thereafter. There is absolutely no way that was "impossible" like they claimed and then they proved me right shortly after.

It doesn't inspire confidence if they say something is impossible that I know for a fact is not.

bet you that right now, some clever modder... Could take two seperate accounts, with a char logged onto each server, and 'clunky' version do 75% percent of what I'm saying right now

They actually do (show PFs across DCs). They have a website.

Except one thing : Chaos DC Raid Scene is just completly dead. If you want to raid, you need to travel to Light DC. So, shutting down DC travel will impede gear progression for a lot of person.

It's only dead because of DC Travel. If for some reason it's still dead without DC Travel, it would grow over time. I come from a DC where that happened and the PFs grew.

[Gurgeh]

I can only say I agree with 100% of what you say. Including that you could do in less than a year.
The whole loot tracking thing was embarrassing. THAT was a much harder problem to solve than my pseudo DC party party finder with auto travel upon application.

For their sake I'm begging them to do something. It's killing whole DCs. I'm shocked at how much more fun the game is on light. Even just running ARR dungeons. I'm getting CONSTANT parties of hoping happy sprouts, rather than two bored endgame DPS and one console sprout not using chat. There are a lot of players on Chaos with short fuses. And frankly I was one of them. I didn't lash out, I kept it out off chat, but I did give up. Any kind of 'harassment' and I just logged off, a single passive aggressive comment and I was just gone. I was having zero fun, little hope, and any problem just made it stress and negative fun. I wasnt having fun. And I suspect the people being dicks are just expressing/filling their own bored frustration. They are not super happy.
The whole vibe everywhere is night and day on light. I really wasn't expecting it.

[Doragan]

Well.

As somebody that is playing on Spriggan for a long time too, I can tell you that most of the active players are either in Solution Nine, or in their (FC) houses. They might have went away after they finished the MSQ too. My FC was pretty active when the expansion dropped, and they didn't come back since finishing the raid tier. They will most likely come back on 7.1. As things stand now, most players on Chaos are raiding on Light or joining pfs on Light because that is where most pfs are. It definitely wasn't as bad when the expansion dropped, but the whole DC has been a complete desert since last month.

That being said, I believe this is all due to the decision to split Chaos into Light and Chaos back in Shadowbringers. The active population didn't particularly justify that split either at the time, but whatever. Case is, interDC groups are the norm. If you close one off, you're going to break most raiding groups whos active at the moment, and that is going to make a lot of people quit entirely if they can't play with their friends.

I'm probably asking for a lot here, but if we could have a proper server merge with all the European worlds accessible from one DC, this would solve the issue in one strike and we wouldn't have to worry about when cross DC /tell and groups being implemented. That way, we get no house demolished, we get everyone accessible from a few clicks and everyones happy.

Moreover, we already witnessed server-bound pfs dying at the end of Heavensward in favour of DC-bound groups. Now, the same thing is happening on a DC level, and frankly, the neat thing is that it can be fixed without removing servers.

[VoidsentStatus]

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Few things to work out kink wise with this suggestion:

1) all the ppl complaining about losing fc buffs and access to retainers will still complain
2) this allows you to force your way onto a given data center that's congested or it'd just be a combination of dynamis/crystal/primal. you could reject applying if its to a congested location, but then everyone hosting pf's is going to flood non-congested worlds just so people can accept the pf and that puts them away from retainers/fc house/buff usage while waiting in PF so problem 1 but the hoster gets added to the issue
3) still adds server stress which is one of the issues I see people forgetting about when they ask for Dynamis to be shifted into the main 3 NA DC's. They don't want to stay with 3 DC's handling the playerbase stress as the population grows over the years.

this one depend on what you meant by "then you have to wait the 50 minutes for that PF to fill, but then saying you don't travel last minute)
4) that lack of communication possible due to chat disabled would also mean that you don't know how long ppl plan to be available in said pf, and you also can't pre-discuss strategy or other matters before the party is filled.

5) From what I'm aware of the process from what others said over the years, the core issue is how they handle character data to begin with. DC Travel isn't actually a movement of your character data, but rather a cloning of it. You need that person's character data on a different server to interact inside of that server fundamentally. Your original data is likely just hidden/inaccessible and becomes updated when returning home. The "this place is taken" section of your idea would need to relay duty unlock, job played as, item level, blacklist status, before even deciding if that place could be taken. The PF itself in text data could be duplicated and sent over likely, but that doesn't loophole needing 2 sets of character data interacting with each other before you're able to join.

6) The question also exists of what does "this place is taken" mean exactly? If it locks that slot in the raid up until I arrive, does that mean that Square Enix is now, not only going to transfer my character, but automatically force me to log in with no cancel option? What happens during expansion release when login queue's are 500-1000+? Could I alternate characters/accounts and troll someone and lock up their 8th slot permanently because they're stuck on waiting for me? What happens if I close the client during the login process? Square Enix said they save your spot in the queue for certain errrors so I would assume if I was crashed or there was some server instability, my spot in the PF wouldn't be at risk would it? Do I just get to play RNG with the PF Host's patience and there's no way for them to blacklist me because my character data is never fully in the party?

[Gurgeh]

1) all the ppl complaining about losing fc buffs and access to retainers will still complain

Yes. And some will still find its not enough and dessert their server to transfer. But its better that the nothing we've got. For some it will be enough to stay and that's all that matter.s Mathematically it's likely to mean just 5:5 disadvantaged Chaos:Light, rather than the horrifically unfair 10:0 Chaos:Light we have now, but that's just human fairness.

2) this allows you to force your way onto a given data center that's congested... ...then everyone hosting pf's is going to flood non-congested worlds... the pf and that puts them away from retainers/fc house/buff..

Yes. Although 'hard' congestion limits will still hold. I'd suggest that PF's must be forced to be cross DC or all this is a waste of time.
Congested DC's frankly... they should block new PFs being put up. Tough titty you are going to have to travel to put your PF up because the server is busy and you need to accept travellers. Yes you are goign to loose your retainers, just like poor Chaos users have now.
But its still better than what we have and again that's all that matters. Not if your the privileged 50% on light, but its so much better if you are the decimated 50% on Chaos. (We know its not 50:50 anymore though is it? But unless we do something, just turn off Chaos now, because its inevitable. Its RIPPING Chaos users off. Especially poor Chaos sprouts who've no idea the disaster that awaits them once they pop their head up from HW MSQ)

[Gurgeh]

3) still adds server stress...
this one depend on what you meant by "then you have to wait the 50 minutes for that PF to fill, but then saying you don't travel last minute")

No it doesn't (just to the travel infrastructure.) In fact it is likely to alleviate stress, as more RAIDING will be happening on Chaos.
What I mean is when you apply to PF, you are immediately logged of, and your travel starts. Only when you get there can you chat to the PF owner. If the PF isn't starting for 50minutes and you have to farm FATEs too bad. If you find out they are only playing for 15minutes... and have to leave the PF... too bad. Again, its better than what we have, some will still perma transfer, but some won't and that's all that matters.

4) that lack of communication possible due to chat disabled would also mean that you don't know how long ppl plan...

See above.

5) From what I'm aware ...... but that doesn't loophole needing 2 sets of character data interacting with each other before you're able to join.

I 'm not getting the point here or problem I'm afraid. I'll only say travel already works. Those problems have already been solved. (saving for at increased bandwidth/increased travel)

6) The question also exists of what does "this place is taken" mean exactly? If it locks that slot in the raid up until I arrive, does that mean that Square Enix is now, not only going to transfer my character, but automatically force me to log in with no cancel option?

In a word yes. An application to a PF place on another DC is 100% equivalent to being at the XIV client lobby login in screen > selecting 'travel to Alpha:Light' > 'are you sure' > and answering 'yes' and 'login' all in one go.
But you 'can' cancel during that travel process as you can now. And that will just signal the PF to release your place.(see below also)

What happens during expansion release when login queue's are 500-1000+? Could I alternate characters/accounts and troll someone and lock up their 8th slot permanently because they're stuck on waiting for me?

Not unless the coders are incompetent and have never heard of 'TIMEOUTS'
If you apply to a place, your going to take it when you get there. You could sabotage PFs by wasting peoples time no matter where you are. You can do that now. If after character travel, your character then never appears in that server's login queue... (becuase you've DCd) the PF place is released.

What happens if I close the client during the login process?

See above. Its just all of what happens now. IT is just a question of signalling, and timeouts, to update that PF place reservation.

Square Enix said they save your spot in the queue for certain errrors so I would assume if I was crashed or there was some server instability, my spot in the PF wouldn't be at risk would it? Do I just get to play RNG with the PF Host's patience and there's no way for them to blacklist me because my character data is never fully in the party?

I see no reason why the current error handling experience can't mostly be preserved. But where it can't be, then yes, this will be a disadvantage of travelling, but again, its better than what we have and thats all that matters. (much better)

As for the blacklisting yes that's not ideal... but
(a) its better than we have
(b) I'd suggest you can prevent people being able to kick until the person arrives.. (at which point only a vindictive loon would still do that because they've already had to wait and the wait is now over) You can even lock PF disband until the transfer is complete if you wanted.
(b) and what are they going to do, block every player on Chaos. It not going to help until after that person has turned up. It won't help much in the future as they are unlikely to see that smae character again (at lest soon) but 'will' be seeing another Chaos player (and they will start to see lots... its going to piss other players in their PF)... in short its not giogn to work for them to their advantage. And they will work that out eventually, or only they will suffer ultimate anyway... so let them.

If Light community went crazy and started boycotting Chaos users en mass, that is something they are goign to have to proscribe in general T's&C's behaviour, and the GM's are goign to have to start saying "'why' did you kick them? I'm not seeing anything in the game chat logs. That's the 21st kick you've done this week that we've had a complaint about, with no contact with the player in question, we can see they are all Chaos players. Stop now or the next time we speak enjoy your weeks Ban. This is our game there are conditions you've agreed to, we don't have to give you the benefit of the doubt, play nicely or don't pay and don't play."
"A: oh,, we kicked them for their FF logs"
"Yeah? well again your banned."

[VoidsentStatus]

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1) I don't know what you mean by no it doesn't. You are adding to the login queue of the world you traveled to, and you are an extra body to load in open world. Not overburdening certain worlds with stress was one reason they stated they didn't want to incentivize travel to certain worlds to motivate people to spread out.

2) So, to explain things a little more. The travel system doesn't already work. The restrictions we have are because the of the limitations I mentioned. To visualize it, imagine it as Character A is on Data Center A, we'll just say House A. Character B is on Data Center B aka House B. Only people in House A can send data to people in House A. House B people cannot contact House A people. That means tells, party invites, free company/linkshell messages, search info/adventure plate information, etc. If someone is in a different House, you can't have those interactions because they are not physically in the same space as you. You would have to leave your house, to enter their house, before you can interact. This extreme condition is even more apparent in the fact that we don't even have updated friend lists across Data Centers. That's why the zig zag line pokeball exists to request updated information for the server. That is the same as asking a drone to hop over to the other house and tell you who's there because you can't do it yourself. There is not a steady stream of information being shared between House A and House B. And even when they do share information, guess what? I can't even see that person's search info or adventure plate or job levels if they're on another data center even if they're on my friend list. I can see that information for friends on another world in the same House as me, but friends on a different House, I don't have that information. that type of information is what you need for the PF process and doesn't currently exist.

3) "If you apply to a place, your going to take it when you get there." -> So you're potentially going to have people going through the data center travel process just to fail to join the group and have to return back home before trying again if 1) there's no other PF's on that data center because you have to return home to go to another non-home DC first or 2) they were talking or doing something else in the background while waiting on a PF they were interested in. I mean, it works, but, you will have a lot of complaints probably because you're at 2-3 minute delay loading time wise minimum so for certain PF's/roles, you're going to get beaten repeatedly by someone on that home data center. Not a problem for dead time periods in patch, but launch wise, that's an issue. Maybe not for EU, but NA and JP would have 4 data centers of raiders as an example, fighting over 1 healer slot in a raid PF because you don't have updated info and only 1 person is gonna get in, and the others will have to double back.

[Gurgeh]

1) I don't know what you mean by no it doesn't. You are adding to the login queue of the world you traveled to...

'Travel 'transactions' increase yes... 'but' (and this is everything) under the changes you will now have a session where instead of 96 people on Light and 0 on Chaos, it starts to move back to 48 on Light and 48 on Chaos. The load is able to balance, as all those Chaos players travelling to Light... they stop doing that, and can start advertising and hosting PFs on Chaos. It is nigh 'certain' that load on Light will actually decrease.
Expect load on the 'Travel' infrastructure to go up though.

2) So, to explain things a little more. The travel system doesn't already work. The restrictions we have are because the of the limitations I mentioned. To visualize it, imagine it as Character A is on Da...

Now we are into semantics I think. (And contrary to popular belief semantics is EVEYTHING. I've never understood the suggestion that arguing such is pointless for all those who aspire to use a common language for communication)
You and I can travel. In that sense Travel works.

...That's why the zig zag line pokeball exists to request updated information for the server. ... There is not a steady stream of information being shared between House A and House B

Indeed. However I am not suggesting that 'no' dev work is needed. However the data we are talking about is as follows

<Instance><Objective><DescriptionMessage><R1>..<R8><AvgILvl><OptionFlags><Recruiter>

That is it. There will be some bloat of hidden stuff not used.. but it will not be significant.
Then on demand only the full PF info can be obtained. However, it is likely to be more efficient to provide this from the get go.

<expansion><Instance><Location><TimeLimit><AvItemLevel><Status><J1>..<J24><Filled1>..<Filled24><LanguageFlags><DescriptionMessage>

That is a 'tiny' amount of data.
I exagerate not at all when I say I can go down PC World and buy a laptop for your gran, X2, go and buy an MS SQL Datacentre licence, and I would have more than enough DB grunt to handle a clustered resilient database for the whole of EU Light and Chaos. This is such a trivial task it really is. You will probably have created more demanding Excel spreadsheets for your school homework.
Someone has already pointed out there are already websites doing this. No dev work required.https://xivpf.com/listings
You point out yourself that already you can 'request' login status on members in your friends list cross world and even cross DC now. Significant Proof of Concept right there. The scaling we are talking about to transfer data needed to signal joining a PF doesn't even deserve to be called scaling.

... I've run out of space for now...