Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

[Sui-Kune]

I had no intention of that even being an argument. I just think it's a mistake to portray the problem as "the races look more Hyuran" because I don't think that's the problem – and because I think phrasing it that way makes it sound like characters who are already Hyuran are therefore fine when they really aren't.

To be clear, I've been brewing thoughts on this for a while and this is not meant to be arguing back.

As I said previously, the actual problem seems to be that they are moving all characters towards one generic human face, or perhaps just did a poor job of moulding that face to match the individual face shapes, which is a problem for all character faces because it moves that character away from the character's individual (rather than racial) identity.

For some races like Roegadyn the individual and racial identities are linked because the only thing that defines Roegadyn as a race (besides their colour) is that they are humans with a particular subset of human features and moving towards the generic face moves them away from the features that define them.

For other races that's not the same problem. My Miqo'te and Au Ra haven't lost the non-human features that indicate their race, but they have lost the specific face shapes that defined them as individual people.

I just feel like it's really important to be clear on the problem, and not risk them interpreting it as "Hyurs are fine, only the other races have identity issues".

Aye, I get it. I do apologize for snapping, @faiarrow got really upset because they've already been hurting so much and it hit a nerve, so I was a lot more curt than I needed to be.

That does make sense what you're saying, and I do want you to understand as well what we meant by 'hyurification', and how we genuinely didn't intend for it to sound like hyurs didn't get major issues as well. That generic face however is, for all intents and purposes, meant to be human or something human-adjacent (like hyur, even if the result is hyur also got major issues), so would it be alright to then settle on 'humanification' for this phenomenon? Or something using the word 'generic', since like you said, miqo'te and au ra didn't so much lose the non-human features that set them apart but rather their face types in general. Would that be sufficient to clear the air so to speak, and avoid more unintentional arguing?

[Cheapshot]

You probably want the word homogenization, “the process of making things uniform or similar”. This has been a word I feel unfortunately describes a lot of recent design philosophy in ffxiv.

[azaleai]

I certainly wasn't expecting any considerable mention about the graphical update... or the ddos, or the eyestrain, or job balance, etc etc, since this was at a game show and it would be an incredibly bad look for them to say "we really effed up"... but I do think it would have been nice to have a slide mentioning that it will be covered in the next PLL at the end so we could have the translation right there, rather than hearing "graphical update" in amongst a sentence the vast majority of the English playerbase wouldn't understand and be left wondering what exactly was said until someone translated it for us... Since they already have an English translation for the points from all the previous slides, that's not too much to ask, right?

And FWIW, I don't think the phrase "hyurification" implies there's nothing wrong with the hyur faces - it simply implies the somewhat less human-looking faces are being moved towards this one generic human looking face just like you said. Since it appears Hyurs were the initial faces modelled and all other races were morphed from them, the rounding of the Roegadyn nose and the erasure of the strong brow are likely down to it being parented from this one Hyur model. There's other issues with the faces too which aren't linked to the morphing (like the lip normals being misaligned) so 'hyurificiation' (or 'humanification' or homogenisation, if you will) is just a way of classifying the issues that come from being morphed from the Hyur model, rather than all of the issues as a whole.

[Gaddes]

Since I don't know the history with the "hyurification," was the process of basing all the meshes off of a Hyur base mesh something that was done from the very beginning in 2.0, or was this something done with the graphic updates for Dawntrail? If it's recent, I worry that this might prevent them from doing larger changes if it's not compatible with that mesh conversion.

It also sounds like this might continue for a few more patches... for folks that don't have easy access to translation, the link from the earlier page was YoshiP saying this during the liveletter:

Final Fantasy XIV "83rd FFXIV Producer Letter LIVE"
(1:31:34-1:32:16)

"Well, we've been receiving a lot of detailed graphics updates from all over the world, and we're going to be making adjustments to them, especially to the characters, as I mentioned in the text the other day.

Of course, there are some things that can't be made in 7.1 alone, so we're going to let you know that these items have been added to 7.2 and we'll be working on them properly, so please check that out too.

However, it's all very nuanced, so if we just show you screenshots of what's going to happen, you'll end up noticing whether it's right or wrong, so we'll be delivering patches with thorough adjustments, so we hope you'll check them out and give us your feedback."

[Iscah]

Since I don't know the history with the "hyurification," was the process of basing all the meshes off of a Hyur base mesh something that was done from the very beginning in 2.0, or was this something done with the graphic updates for Dawntrail? If it's recent, I worry that this might prevent them from doing larger changes if it's not compatible with that mesh conversion.

Early in the process, they rather proudly showed off that they now have one basic face model that morphs to different proportions instead of having individually made faces with animations built for each one.

[Argantaelle]

When looking through Chinese lodestone threads, I've found this very interesting post about changes in the faces of Midlander males and how they affect the cutscenes and the plot in general.

Warning: HW and SHB spoilers ahead!

but I do think it would have been nice to have a slide mentioning that it will be covered in the next PLL at the end so we could have the translation right there, rather than hearing "graphical update" in amongst a sentence the vast majority of the English playerbase wouldn't understand and be left wondering what exactly was said until someone translated it for us...

It's even more difficult for non-English people like me, who have to "translate" Japanese phrases to English and then from English to my own language. I'm still not quite sure what exactly Mr. Yoshida said.

[Ysmia]

Weird Brows Animation


This is a Miqo'te Keeper using Face 4 Brows 5.
When expressionless the eyebrows match where the originals are, but when it comes to expressions they become distorted, making the character appear cartoonishly angry.

[FlamboyantAsBurningInferno]

The new lighting continues to ruin old cutscenes.

Endwalker 6.0.


Dawntrail 7.0

[lunartears]

[...]
For other races that's not the same problem. My Miqo'te and Au Ra haven't lost the non-human features that indicate their race, but they have lost the specific face shapes that defined them as individual people.

I hope this doesn't come across as dismissive because I understand where you are coming from and I have enjoyed reading your feedback (as with all) but I respectfully disagree about Au Ra.
I feel like my Au Ra lost her racial traits which to me were the small pupils, sharp nose and smaller mouth.
Though some would probably say those features (aside from the pupil size change) don't count as a defining racial feature and are more likely related to the update as a whole, so it's just my own interpretation after spending 3-ish years with this character.

Also, I apologise if my usage of "hyurification" has upset you. I have only used it in the way I would "humanificiation'" as Hyur is basically "human" in this game. Hyur is one of the races where I can most easily identify the changes so I don't think they are unscathed at all.

[FuturePastNow]

In the corresponding Japanese thread, a player retold Mr. Yoshida's words that screenshots can lead to confusion. It seems like we'll receive another black bag without an opportunity to preview its contents and have to deal with the results. At least that's what Google Translate tells me.

I'm afraid there won't be anything substantial in the next PLL too, except maybe for a brief mention: "We are working on characters; please look forward to it.".

So we'll have to endure yet another month of waiting and uncertainty.

They really ought to update the benchmark again once the next round of changes are "final", though I don't expect it.