After Dawntrails abject Failure of a Story, there need to be serious Consequences

[Alchemii]

So what came before DT? Another story you didn't like and is solely based on your opinion? Endwalker, which had the highest rating ever? It seems like you are the one who has no self-awareness.

I mean, I didn't have a problem with Endwalker. Could it have been better? Maybe, but not an issue. Endwalker post game was a bit meh, but I saw what they were trying to set up with the Aether transfer between shards to rebalance things. Shadowbringers was really good, with the only annoying parts being the fae. I didn't mind Stormblood, most my issues there were more on the launch problems, story wasn't as good as Heavensward, but it was passible. And yes I have recently replayed the MSQ on an alt, Stormblood is better than Dawntrail. But you don't actually care about that, no your just trying to throw it back in my face cause you don't have an actual argument or defense for Dawntrail. You don't have a defense for the fact that if you put even half a second of thought into what's going on in the Dawntrail story it falls apart, you have no defense for why Garfield suddenly got power boosted and had to be everywhere, and you have absolutely no defense for how all personality of other characters is dropped so they could all be cheerleaders for the worst character SE has ever created.

[Kazemon15]

I mean, I didn't have a problem with Endwalker. Could it have been better? Maybe, but not an issue. Endwalker post game was a bit meh, but I saw what they were trying to set up with the Aether transfer between shards to rebalance things. Shadowbringers was really good, with the only annoying parts being the fae. I didn't mind Stormblood, most my issues there were more on the launch problems, story wasn't as good as Heavensward, but it was passible. And yes I have recently replayed the MSQ on an alt, Stormblood is better than Dawntrail. But you don't actually care about that, no your just trying to throw it back in my face cause you don't have an actual argument or defense for Dawntrail. You don't have a defense for the fact that if you put even half a second of thought into what's going on in the Dawntrail story it falls apart, you have no defense for why Garfield suddenly got power boosted and had to be everywhere, and you have absolutely no defense for how all personality of other characters is dropped so they could all be cheerleaders for the worst character SE has ever created.

Okay, let me put that to the test.

Her power coming from nowhere? Hm... let's see. During her battle with Bakool Ja Ja, she mentioned that she has learned what was important to her and no matter what, those feelings will pull her through. What did we learn in Endwalker? Dynamis is another source of energy, another source of strength, heck the entire second half was about how Dynamis can empower people, and even limit breaks are Dynamis based. What did she use for most of the fight to defeat him? Limit breaks.

You need to put two and two together to figure that out, because they don't hold your hand to explain it to your face, which people have been complaining about by the way, but the moment they don't, it's suddenly "bad storytelling" because they don't. So which is it? Do you need it to be explained, or can you use the past story experiences and think and then apply it to the situation?

The Scions personalities are also just fine. In no way they are "cheerleaders", they are however, emotional support. We had tons of threads saying the scions overstayed their welcome and want new characters...and yet not people are mad they aren't the focus? Wuk Lamat needed to be a less developed in order to develop her in the story, which she was. Yes, her personality (which people find annoying but that isn't a character flaw, some personalities you aren't gonna mesh with) stays the same, but her naiveness and innocence slowly grew overtime, if you paid attention. You need to develop new characters when you introduce them or the story will go nowhere. But no, the scions weren't the focus this time and a new character was the main focus, because she wasn't developed yet...but last expansion, people wanted a new character to see their development and not the scions... ...Please make up your mind.

[Eyrilona]

Again, Steam is an extremely small portion of the playerbase. And I know, it is actually impossible to see the entire playerbase because only SE can see those numbers. We only have Yoshi P's statement that the game is still doing well. That is the closest we have. You cannot just focus on steam and ignore the rest of the playerbase and use that as the game is dying. That is a bad argument. I even forgot that most people use the PS5 too, 90ish% of the Japanese playerbase actually use PS5, then even had a liveletter and showed controller vs. Keyboard and mouse and the fact that most Japanese typically do not own a personal computer. There is also the new Xbox playerbase to consider as well. Steam does not account for them either. It is impossible for me or PassinLay to provide accurate statistics, so using that as an argument is invalid.

Yes, WoW did get bought out, but my main argument is it did not get shut down and is still going on. Which it is. Which is fact. And no way a "bad argument". If WoW, one of the most popular MMOs of all time can still continue on despite being bought out by other investors is proof in itself that a simple bad review or smaller playerbase for FFXIV is not making it in "danger of shutting down."

Very well, I can also work with statistics if you so insist.

According to the most recent article that really went into his in 2023, Final Fantasy XIV at the time had an estimated daily player count of 493,667, of which 20,014 on steam. That means that if you base yourself on the movement of the Steam numbers, we are availing ourselves of very close to 1:25 of the total population. One in every twenty-five players is part of the sample.

That is a larger sample size representation than we use for quality assurance in microchip production, automobile manufacture, polls for who is going to win the next US elections, or even nuclear safety.

So insist if you will that as far as you are concerned Steam users are too tiny a fraction of the population to treat them as a sample for trends, but you will en passant need to argue that as you are concerned almost every use of statistics underpinning our societies, science and industry means nothing.

[honest_psycho]

Okay, let me put that to the test.

Her power coming from nowhere? Hm... let's see. During her battle with Bakool Ja Ja, she mentioned that she has learned what was important to her and no matter what, those feelings will pull her through. What did we learn in Endwalker? Dynamis is another source of energy, another source of strength, heck the entire second half was about how Dynamis can empower people, and even limit breaks are Dynamis based. What did she use for most of the fight to defeat him? Limit breaks.

I hate this "muh dynamis" defense so god damn much.

If it is soooo easy to just use dynamis, when that tears a lot of holes in the previous story.

Like why didn't Haurchefant use tank lb3 to protect from that attack?
Why didn't Yshtola use LB3 to fend of Zenos in rhalgars reach?

Where are so many examples of deaths that can be retconned to "could have been prevented if he just believed more".
I liked Endwalker very much but this Dynamis bs needs to die.

I'll let others explain to you what is wrong with he Scions in DT.

[ZXN]

You know I had an idea of what this thread would be like once I opened it and I am un-surprised to find out it is exactly like I thought it would be even down to the back and forths.

This is going to be a long two years.

[honest_psycho]

If it takes 2 years of bitching and moaning to prevent 8.0 of being garbage then so be it.

[Eyrilona]

You know I had an idea of what this thread would be like once I opened it and I am un-surprised to find out it is exactly like I thought it would be even down to the back and forths.

This is going to be a long two years.

As back and forth argument threads go though, I am rather enjoying this one. We have made it to page seven already without a nasty ad hominem. For this forum, we are doing well!

[Kaurhz]

for a story MMO it was not a good story.. Or, well, more accurately it was rushed.

However these suggestions are, at best comically unrealistic.

Prelude to 1. - No, they aren't going to halt a game of this magnitude just because you're disappointed by the story. It's not only feasible, but it is an incredibly bad idea.

1. Yes, he should be focusing on FF14 exclusively. So should the entire development team.

2. No - Simply because the writers are only a small part of the problem. With any project there were people that turned around and said "Yes, this is good."

3. Honestly, no... A lot of the problems are just that there wasn't enough foundation to support everything they tried to pull out of the rabbit hat. Granted, there are mistakes.

3.5.(?) They aren't going to give a public apology. For as bad as the story was, it was honestly not that bad... If it were a complete and utter buggy mess and unplayable then yes I would understand. Frankly, I would just prefer them to take this as a learning experience. You aren't always going to hit the nail on the head.

[PassinLay]

Very well, I can also work with statistics if you so insist.

According to the most recent article that really went into his in 2023, Final Fantasy XIV at the time had an estimated daily player count of 493,667, of which 20,014 on steam. That means that if you base yourself on the movement of the Steam numbers, we are availing ourselves of very close to 1:25 of the total population. One in every twenty-five players is part of the sample.

That is a larger sample size representation than we use for quality assurance in microchip production, automobile manufacture, polls for who is going to win the next US elections, or even nuclear safety.

So insist if you will that as far as you are concerned Steam users are too tiny a fraction of the population to treat them as a sample for trends, but you will en passant need to argue that as you are concerned almost every use of statistics underpinning our societies, science and industry means nothing.

Said it a lot better than I would, thank you.

That person is so far in denial it's actually wild.

[AnotherPerson]

Okay, let me put that to the test.

Her power coming from nowhere? Hm... let's see. During her battle with Bakool Ja Ja, she mentioned that she has learned what was important to her and no matter what, those feelings will pull her through. What did we learn in Endwalker? Dynamis is another source of energy, another source of strength, heck the entire second half was about how Dynamis can empower people, and even limit breaks are Dynamis based. What did she use for most of the fight to defeat him? Limit breaks.

You need to put two and two together to figure that out, because they don't hold your hand to explain it to your face, which people have been complaining about by the way, but the moment they don't, it's suddenly "bad storytelling" because they don't. So which is it? Do you need it to be explained, or can you use the past story experiences and think and then apply it to the situation?

The Scions personalities are also just fine. In no way they are "cheerleaders", they are however, emotional support. We had tons of threads saying the scions overstayed their welcome and want new characters...and yet not people are mad they aren't the focus? Wuk Lamat needed to be a less developed in order to develop her in the story, which she was. Yes, her personality (which people find annoying but that isn't a character flaw, some personalities you aren't gonna mesh with) stays the same, but her naiveness and innocence slowly grew overtime, if you paid attention. You need to develop new characters when you introduce them or the story will go nowhere. But no, the scions weren't the focus this time and a new character was the main focus, because she wasn't developed yet...but last expansion, people wanted a new character to see their development and not the scions... ...Please make up your mind.

Even Dynamis isn't that extreme... otherwise anyone and everyone with ambitions are unstoppable forces of nature.
We don't get to use Dynamis off the tip of our hand no matter when. We need a party of 4 at minimum to access LB1, and a party of 8 for LB2, and LB3 is reserved only during bosses. Dynamis has limits in an aetherically suffused environment (such as Etheriys).
Endwalker is an exception because we went to a place where it is dynamis-rich and aetherically lacking. It would be fine if she used Dynamis, but not in the way where she just got power up after power up after power up to the point she can contend with foes far beyond her ability *alone*. If she's weak individually, then write her as a strong character who relies on friends to make up the difference.

And the scions are definitely a shell of their former selves. There is no chance G'raha would not be questioning the existence of said entities in the final zone when he himself gave pause when answering the Omnicron's question on existence in life. He was so strongly defined in his feelings to be able to persist against the Omnicron's logic in the events on Endwalker. G'raha directly agreeing to shutting them down rather than looking for alternative solutions is already a red flag that his character has somehow changed drastically in the final zone. The scions themselves are far more well equipped at solving problems involving the soul and yet we never bring them into the fold even though we are aptly aware they have the ability to fix things... WHY? The Levin sickness is one such example. Alisaie is with us during our time in Nine Solutions. There was not a single mention to Sphene or that we can solve the issue and show promise to work together to solve their issues. We just left innocents suffering for no reason at all. The Archon Creed defines the majority of the scions. "To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom - it is indolence." The scions are not heartless and ignorant of helping those who are in need. We see this time and time again in The First and in The Source. They ended up destroying the entire characterization that makes the scions who they are in the first place in Dawntrail.

People aren't mad at the scions if they were well written. People are mad because the scions aren't well written and they just exist for the sake of saying they exist. It pleased no one and it isn't congruous to the storytelling at all.
And it IS bad storytelling when people all collectively point out the flaws of the writing to the point it happens in every part of the story. I didn't have a problem with Endwalker base expansion as much I had a problem with Dawntrail exactly because there hasn't been a lot of moments where a bit of examination creates tons of plotholes in the story.