Why Erenville succeeded as a character where others did not

[Banggugyangu]

like 85% of Y'shtola and Urianger's scenes? They're expositional characters...

[Rosenstrauch]

As far as the topic itself is concerned, I can't be the only one who finds the idea farcical. There is nothing to substantiate that any of the characters mentioned in the OP were well received in their respective "times to shine" specifically because they were introduced in some capacity years in advance.

Yugiri and the WoDs in particular are directly connected to two characters who don't have this alleged benefit, yet are every bit as popular as the ones who preceded them: Hien and Cylva. The latter's case is especially noteworthy because she's introduced as the heretofore unseen sixth member of a five man party, yet is arguably more beloved than half of the Warriors of Darkness. And Krile? You could axe every single mention of her prior to her first appearance in 3.1, and absolutely nothing would change about her popularity or reception. Krile isn't remembered fondly because of that linkpearl call Minfilia had with her in the background of one of Alphinaud's speeches. She's remembered fondly for who she is and what she does onscreen.

And what's "where others did not" even supposed to mean? Because with words like that in the title, it sounds like the intent behind this thread isn't to extol the virtues of how Erenville was written, but to cast shade on whatever "others" are being implied. Hells, it even casts shade on Erenville himself.

And as far as Erenville himself is concerned: I'll confess that, aside from finding him to be very physically attractive and enjoying the sound of his voice, I didn't really care about him until Dawntrail took him from a one-off friendly face and made him into a well-rounded character with a dynamic arc, interesting and fleshed out background, and role as the comically serious foil to his childhood friend. Which is, imo, precisely the opposite of what's being suggested in the OP: That his character was only well received because he'd had years to simmer in the fans' minds beforehand.

[Cleretic]

like 85% of Y'shtola and Urianger's scenes? They're expositional characters...

We constantly level exactly these sorts of complaints at Y'shtola. We've been doing it for so long that it's evolved into entirely separate complaints on top of it, that she 'hasn't gotten any character development' and the like.

Now Urianger, he's interesting. Because he started off as a font of exposition, but they built his story instead around him getting to actively Do A Thing--specifically, 'be a weird untrusworthy spy'. Every part of his characterization since Heavensward has been about the fact he just keeps going turncoat and lying to his friends; it's even the focus of, let's be honest, the only actual character scene he ever had, in Mare Lamentorum. Urianger actually stole the reason Thancred managed to escape this problem, because being a spy gives a character active scenes and things they can presumed to be doing off-screen; 'I was off spying in Garlemald' feels a lot more active than 'I was off reading a dozen books'.

But I don't think you can do this one that often, and that Urianger benefited from them pivoting into this really early, and pivoting from something that we already had a surplus of. I don't think Erenville could've swung this, and I think the ship had already sailed on Krile getting similar.

[Banggugyangu]

You're thinking far too hard into this, however.... There's a huge difference with an expositional character that still takes an active part in what's happening around them. I brought up Y'shtola and Urianger because they do exactly this. Y'shtola not only takes part in what's happening around her in practically every situation that involves her, but she quite literally drives several scenes entirely. Urianger is less of a driving force, but if he's present, he's typically utilized. Erenville... is not.... Not only does he actively dip any time action begins happening, which in itself is fine, as his character is centered around not having combat abilities, but when the story shifts to be almost entirely ABOUT him... he just sits and broods the entire time... Literally no other character in the entire game does this... Eda Blackbossom actually contributes more value in the few scenes that she's present in than Erenville does in the last half of Dawntrail. And again... I'm not saying he's a bad character, just that he was used poorly.

[Turnintino]

I've said several times, the reason Erenville was 'squandered' is because he's literally just not built for the spotlight. Characters are built for purpose, and Erenville's purpose is to be a minor character that gives us actionable information that he doesn't use. He's designed for that role, being very passive and introspective, and having skillsets that at best tangentially lead to progress, because he's designed to be far on the sideline. Hell, the game actually gave him the spotlight for half a zone, and he used it to get us to pick up poop; he's really not a good pick for a lead role. Which is the main problem with the structure the OP likes; not every character can actually shoulder being 'main character material'.

I think this is certainly true to an extent, but also, this is fiction. It's true, as you were getting at at the end of your post, that Yda/Lyse was a controversial attempt at this in the past, but... we can also look at someone like G'raha, who is essentially three different characters throughout our history with him.

A lot of time passed between CT and the Crystal Exarch's appearance (a LOT of time in-game), so the suspension of disbelief is more generous to begin with. But then you have the transition between the Exarch personality and his current one which, while not a complete 180 (I think there's connective tissue between all iterations of the character), was still a noticeable shift. The explanation for that is arguably more reasonable than the one given for Yda/Lyse, but it's still a remarkable shift -- and another controversial one, really, despite his popularity. But generally, it seems like it worked for the audience at large.

And I'd also argue that the way they decided to expand on Erenville's personality (and I remember you and Iscah discussing this earlier about the same characters), already bordered on reinvention. In 6.55, we saw him in such a different context that he was already functioning as a different kind of character. Still a supporting character, but one with more potential than I think he ended up being granted. I think that's true of Krile too, but I also think she was more crippled by her prior characterization by far, between the two of them; probably just because she was more established.

[Cleretic]

I think this is certainly true to an extent, but also, this is fiction. It's true, as you were getting at at the end of your post, that Yda/Lyse was a controversial attempt at this in the past, but... we can also look at someone like G'raha, who is essentially three different characters throughout our history with him.

A lot of time passed between CT and the Crystal Exarch's appearance (a LOT of time in-game), so the suspension of disbelief is more generous to begin with. But then you have the transition between the Exarch personality and his current one which, while not a complete 180 (I think there's connective tissue between all iterations of the character), was still a noticeable shift. The explanation for that is arguably more reasonable than the one given for Yda/Lyse, but it's still a remarkable shift -- and another controversial one, really, despite his popularity. But generally, it seems like it worked for the audience at large.

And I'd also argue that the way they decided to expand on Erenville's personality (and I remember you and Iscah discussing this earlier about the same characters), already bordered on reinvention. In 6.55, we saw him in such a different context that he was already functioning as a different kind of character. Still a supporting character, but one with more potential than I think he ended up being granted. I think that's true of Krile too, but I also think she was more crippled by her prior characterization by far, between the two of them; probably just because she was more established.

Okay I'm gonna say the most controversial thing that people are gonna hate here, but to properly talk about this, we need to crack out an entirely different line of thinking:

You can't give Erenville the Shadowbringers G'raha reinvention, because that was reliant on a significant distance between appearances that Erenville doesn't have; we agree on this. But you can't give Erenville the Endwalker G'raha reinvention either, because you can't make Erenville even more bland boyfriend material, because he's already there. And we can't give that treatment to Krile, because we don't accept that treatment from women or lalafel, and we've yet to discover a way to reinvent a female character that the overall fanbase actually likes.

This fanbase has a type, and we'd be foolish to pretend it doesn't. The G'raha reinvention (and to a lesser extent the Urianger one) didn't work because it was better-written or better-suited, it worked because they used it to make a character that pushed the fanbase's favorite buttons.

[Lyth]

...

This is a chocobo-and-egg scenario. Are characters popular because we gave them time to develop, or did the writers preferentially develop characters that were popular? It's hard to tell.

Either way, it's probably safe to say that characters like Erenville, Estinien, G'raha, Themis, Hythlodaeus, Ardbert, Krile, and Emet were all incredibly safe bets to invest character development into, based off of prior audience reactions to them. Would we have viewed Wuk Lamat more favorably had she the advantage of attending a few 'bit parts' before her 'starring role'? I can't say for certain.

What I can say is that it's probably safer to test drive a character with the audience in a minor role before committing thousands of lines of dialogue to them. That might come across as me 'throwing some shade' at a really obvious target, but I'd argue that this is just common sense and good business practice.

...

I'd say Erenville has a lot in common with Urianger, actually. They're both introverts who are most comfortable outside of their conventional social circles (Urianger and the Loporrits, Erenville and the Punutiy). They're both dragged forcibly out of their respective shells by vociferous extraverts that they have tragic backstories with. Outside of Shadowbringers and Endwalker's Scion party wipe sequences, I don't really think that Urianger is much of a combatant either. Not that we need any more battle nerds in the Warrior of Light's friend circle.

I think the primary value that more introverted characters like these add is in reflection. I personally found WL exhausting, and Erenville by contrast just clicked the right balance in exposition. I'd be more than happy to go on more road trips with him. I don't need a character to be consistently in my face to get value out of them. I'm aware this is very much a personal choice, though, and I'm sure that there are obligate extroverts out there who feel the exact opposite.

[rxantos]

wuk lamat was also introduced on last expansion.
Problem was not the introduction. But the focus only on one character on detriment to other characters. Something that an editor would have caught early. For example, next to no exposition of Zoral Ja and his motives. Andd Krile being done dirty.

Wuk Lamat was fine in end walker. But then turned into a black hole mary sue on DT.

[Iscah]

This fanbase has a type, and we'd be foolish to pretend it doesn't. The G'raha reinvention (and to a lesser extent the Urianger one) didn't work because it was better-written or better-suited, it worked because they used it to make a character that pushed the fanbase's favorite buttons.

I just want to say that I liked Urianger before he became popular, and it doesn't feel like he was "reinvented" at any point; his role just expanded over time and he has gradually changed in a way that feels natural for the character.

(G'raha, on the other hand, has not been a continuous single character from ARR to Shadowbringers to Endwalker, so his changes are inevitably going to be big jumps instead of a slow shifting – though he does seem to be mellowing out a bit now that he's got over his initial excitement about joining us and meeting all his heroes.)

[Cleretic]

I just want to say that I liked Urianger before he became popular, and it doesn't feel like he was "reinvented" at any point; his role just expanded over time and he has gradually changed in a way that feels natural for the character.

(G'raha, on the other hand, has not been a continuous single character from ARR to Shadowbringers to Endwalker, so his changes are inevitably going to be big jumps instead of a slow shifting – though he does seem to be mellowing out a bit now that he's got over his initial excitement about joining us and meeting all his heroes.)

Urianger was done more elegantly, but again, I don't want to just say 'better-written'; I don't like dismissing something as just being higher-quality without us being able to properly articulate why. I think Urianger benefited from the fact that he was built around an element of mystery from the jump. His initial outfit was fully concealing, he talked in a very obtuse way, and secrecy was a bigger ongoing element of his story than any concrete facts about him. That's a formula that makes for very elegant reinvention; anything new you tack on can be easily waved off as something that just didn't come up before, any change can be passed off as something he wasn't exactly clear about. G'raha on the other hand is a very open person, even as the Exarch; we'd all notice reinventions, so therefore they have to be obvious and stated. Similarly, Yda was a brick-simple character not suited for what Stormblood had to give her, so any change from that had to be pretty overt too.

Erenville was sort of in an interesting middle-ground for the Endwalker-Dawntrail turnover; he was an unknown, but he's also a very honest and inquisitive person that just didn't have much to say. That meant that anything new they tacked on had to be things that just never came up before; he's not the type to lie, and any mysteries would've been something he'd actively pursue. With those constraints it makes sense why they'd have gone for the 'visit his hometown' angle; it's not something he'd hide, but it is something that just wouldn't have come up.

Meanwhile, Krile's caught on something none of those guys had: already getting a story like this. We already know she's very open but reserved, and how she responds to crisis information and personal mysteries, because Stormblood Eureka already gave us all that; they can't contradict it, especially because as far as Krile's personal journey goes Eureka's the more important one. The tentpoles of her character have already been nailed down, we can't move them.