DNC 7.0 is in its worst state.

[Ramiee]

DNC should be the job that is responsible for 2 min and 1 min buff window.. instead of giving all jobs 1 raid buff

I am so/so on this, I don't mind some jobs having burst raid buffs I think AST/NIN/SMN should keep their raid buffs at least so that each role has a buff identity job. I would also like BRD to lose its burst buffs and just have it focus on having consistent group buffs, while DNC has burst group buffs and a consistent DP buffing identity. I hate the 2min meta but I don't think raid buffs are a bad thing theres just way too many, if phys range isn't allowed to do high damage it should be the objectively best buffing role in the game to compensate and no other jobs ESPECIALLY DPS jobs should come anywhere close to how good the buffs phys range give if this is how they want it to be.

[Tunda]

I am so/so on this, I don't mind some jobs having burst raid buffs I think AST/NIN/SMN should keep their raid buffs at least so that each role has a buff identity job. I would also like BRD to lose its burst buffs and just have it focus on having consistent group buffs, while DNC has burst group buffs and a consistent DP buffing identity. I hate the 2min meta but I don't think raid buffs are a bad thing theres just way too many, if phys range isn't allowed to do high damage it should be the objectively best buffing role in the game to compensate and no other jobs ESPECIALLY DPS jobs should come anywhere close to how good the buffs phys range give if this is how they want it to be.

I will tell you why I see each job have its own buff is bad for the game:

1- Alignment.
2- buffs for DPS non supportive jobs will make it less impactful for supportive DPS jobs
3- easier to manage because it is 1 person job
4- if dps focused job have utility it will outperform selfish DPS jobs of how effective they are, specially if it also has healing (balance).

[PercibelTheren]

I'm torn on DT Dancer. I don't hate it but it feels like a weird change? It's very rigid now, especially the burst window. And that's not mentioning the jank of Tilana overcapping your gauge. Personally, I find it difficult not to drift Standard Step due to Finishing Move putting it on a 30 second CD, but that's probably just me being bad.

[Ramiee]

I will tell you why I see each job have its own buff is bad for the game:

1- Alignment.
2- buffs for DPS non supportive jobs will make it less impactful for supportive DPS jobs
3- easier to manage because it is 1 person job
4- if dps focused job have utility it will outperform selfish DPS jobs of how effective they are, specially if it also has healing (balance).

1. Alignment existed prior to the standardised CDs
2. The ones I listed that should keep raid buffs are supportive DPS, NIN was literally the support DPS of HW and SMN has low damage output so it can be the buffer of magical DPS if it keeps the low damage.
3. We had 8 years of inconsistent Raid buff timers from multiple jobs unless you want everything to be braindead PF based no thanks, its not your job to manage other peoples raid buffs now and it never will be.
4. All DPS role jobs are dps focused only tanks/healers are not dps focused even when NIN was the most support focused DPS in the game it was still mainly prioritised on dealing damage more than it was on aggro management.

[Connor]

I hate the 2min meta but I don't think raid buffs are a bad thing theres just way too many, if phys range isn't allowed to do high damage it should be the objectively best buffing role in the game to compensate and no other jobs ESPECIALLY DPS jobs should come anywhere close to how good the buffs phys range give if this is how they want it to be.

Adding to this, but I think a lot of why phys ranged feels so bad to play is because of how purely passive that ‘support’ ends up being. Like, Bards don’t sing anymore, they just hit a button and that’s it. Dancer is going the same way with Standard Step now being a pure dps cool-down thanks to Finishing Step lol. Utility is either ‘press and forget’ crap like Minne / DR role skills, or functionally redundant like Paean (nobody needs Esuna lol) and Improvisation (a channel you literally cannot channel due to dps loss thus making one question why it retains such functionality in the first place). Machinists have lost literally everything supportive except Dismantle lol, and how look that’s going for them.

I still find it hard believe people would come to the dps role most strongly associated with support with the notion ‘man I can’t wait to go inflict wanton death and devastation upon my enemies as a Poet/Dancer/Machinist lol. I mean, Machinist maybe lol, but even with that as a selfish dps it’s never going to top the charts because of the ranged taxes.

We don’t get the damage to make up for how support has been spread across every role. We don’t get active ways to support the party outside bland-ass cool downs lol. We don’t even get to feel like a supporter; it’s like they want phys ranged to really know that they’re simply the worst role in the game. The amount and/or value of party support other roles have compared to phys ranged really is just kicking us while we’re down (and they’re kicking us in the no-no zone)

[mallleable]

The thing is that BRD already has the numerically strongest raid buffs in the game right now. At full power, BRD has 6% dps + 20% dh + 2% crit buffs during burst while everyone else is 3-5% buff with AST likely being the second strongest (6% + 2X 6% single target buffs). And yet, BRD is the least played phys ranged even though it is currently the strongest in its role, but still one of the weaker dps jobs according to The Math™. However, the bulk of its damage comes from Burst Shot spam so the answer is potency.

The problem is that raid buffs, and buffs in general is that they are an inherently passive mechanic so any job in any role whose main focus is their raid buff will end up with a passive gameplay loop. Another inherently fatal flaw with raid buffs is that they are best used on, and used by the strongest jobs/players so you won't be uplifting the needy, but instead making the rich get richer. Which is my biggest gripe with DNC's design. That's not support. Which is why I generally believe that trying to make phys ranged a 'support' role is a flawed approach, and instead they should lean more into them being snipers/marksmen/ranger jobs that simply use ranged weapons to deal physical damage... from range.

I can kind see what they were trying to do with Finishing Move, where it seems like it's there to help mitigate Standard Step drift when everything lights up after using Flourish, but it's just a bit awkward because it removes the dancing mini game. I wonder if just letting Flourish reset the cooldown on Standard Step could achieve the same result.

[Connor]

.

The problem is that raid buffs, and buffs in general is that they are an inherently passive mechanic so any job in any role whose main focus is their raid buff will end up with a passive gameplay loop. Another inherently fatal flaw with raid buffs is that they are best used on, and used by the strongest jobs/players so you won't be uplifting the needy, but instead making the rich get richer. Which is my biggest gripe with DNC's design. That's not support. Which is why I generally believe that trying to make phys ranged a 'support' role is a flawed approach, and instead they should lean more into them being snipers/marksmen/ranger jobs that simply use ranged weapons to deal physical damage... from range

That’s kinda impossible though unless they completely change how the approach phys ranged. When Bard was first conceived of they added it to the game because, in their words, ‘nobody would want to play a pure ranger type class’, and I guess by extension they didn’t think a poet/musician class would be popular either. Hence, they smashed the two together and we got what we have (had) now; a support-oriented dps.

This has been how they do every phys ranged job and likely always will be. You cannot just have ‘deals damage at range’; you have ‘does archery and sings song to support the party’, or and ‘throws sharp objects and dances around to heal and support’, or finally ‘shoots with gun and deals damage with a bunch of machinery’.

To the devs they cannot be simply ‘attacks with bow/gun/chakram’ because then ‘nobody would want to play them’. And I mean, Bard should be a prime example that it really doesn’t matter how high they make our dps if the class still sucks to play, and the passive support is a large part of that (as is other issues i.e song timing)

As I keep pointing out, I still don’t imagine anyone is coming to the literally always support-oriented Poet job or the healing/supporting Dancer job with the idea ‘wow, I’m going to do so much damage by singing and dancing the enemy to death!’ lol. They’re both jobs that have traditionally been associated with party support in every Final Fantasy game except this one, so it seems a bit weird to a complete 180 on their identity and convert them into straight up pure dps. Personally I’d rather see them go back to letting us actually actively support the party, i.e returning Bard’s actual support spells lol (pre-Stormblood songs). I just want to sing in battle YoshiP let me cast my songs again! Why did you [the devs lol] make a spellcasting animation for Bard’s songs then delete it! I trusted you!

[mallleable]

That’s kinda impossible though unless they completely change how the approach phys ranged. When Bard was first conceived of they added it to the game because, in their words, ‘nobody would want to play a pure ranger type class’, and I guess by extension they didn’t think a poet/musician class would be popular either. Hence, they smashed the two together and we got what we have (had) now; a support-oriented dps.

This has been how they do every phys ranged job and likely always will be. You cannot just have ‘deals damage at range’; you have ‘does archery and sings song to support the party’, or and ‘throws sharp objects and dances around to heal and support’, or finally ‘shoots with gun and deals damage with a bunch of machinery’.

To the devs they cannot be simply ‘attacks with bow/gun/chakram’ because then ‘nobody would want to play them’. And I mean, Bard should be a prime example that it really doesn’t matter how high they make our dps if the class still sucks to play, and the passive support is a large part of that (as is other issues i.e song timing)

As I keep pointing out, I still don’t imagine anyone is coming to the literally always support-oriented Poet job or the healing/supporting Dancer job with the idea ‘wow, I’m going to do so much damage by singing and dancing the enemy to death!’ lol. They’re both jobs that have traditionally been associated with party support in every Final Fantasy game except this one, so it seems a bit weird to a complete 180 on their identity and convert them into straight up pure dps. Personally I’d rather see them go back to letting us actually actively support the party, i.e returning Bard’s actual support spells lol (pre-Stormblood songs). I just want to sing in battle YoshiP let me cast my songs again! Why did you [the devs lol] make a spellcasting animation for Bard’s songs then delete it! I trusted you!

First, consider that the status quo might be wrong. Second consider BRD not as an archer or a bard, but as a rock star where music is their weapon, and their bow is their instrument. I am reminded by other media such as the battle of the bands scene from Scott Pilgrim or the koto fight from Kung Fu Hustle or other games such as Hifi Rush or Thumper that music as a weapon is not such an out there concept. The devs should be playing more music, and rhythm games to figure out what to do with BRD as music, and the musicality of archery should be the most important part of BRD's gameplay.

[Connor]

snip

Personally I don’t see it that way at all in terms of identity. I feel like you’ve maybe misunderstood what’s meant by ‘Final Fantasy Bard’. It’s not the traditional ‘D&D bard’ with a guitar running around singing to people in taverns like a medieval pop star. I’ve put the rest in spoilers since I’m veering off topic quite a bit..

Bards (the real ones lol) were originally scholars and storytellers who tended to gravitate towards poetry, and that’s what they’re (meant to be) invoking with ffxiv’s Bard. Hence why they use harps and flutes instead of more attention grabbing instruments like an electric guitar (no idea why they threw violin in there for a single skill lol). Shakespeare, for example, is often referred to as a ‘Bard’, but that doesn’t by extension mean he’s also a musician. I mean, look at Jehantel in the Bard quests.

An old man who talks in verse whilst plucking a harp isn’t really giving the ‘rock star’ vibes. I feel like the fact it’s translated into Japanese as ‘Poet’ and not ‘Musician’ or ‘Pop Star’ (idol?) reinforces that they’re going less for a stereotyped image of ‘bards’ and drawing inspiration from the image of them more as storytellers and historians, and not simply ‘musician with bow’. Naturally, add ‘ffxiv aether manipulation’ to that equation and you get ‘storyteller and historian whose recitations manifest real-world effects’ lol. It’s worth considering how the songs are named in ffxiv. A Ballad is often considered ‘a sad song’ by today’s standard, but originally it referred to a narrative with musical accompaniment (in this case the narrative is of the Mage’s amazing feats and somehow that makes everyone hit 1% harder lol). A ‘Paeon’ is a poem written with specific stresses on syllables as opposed to a musical composition, etc. Minuet, funnily enough, is a type of slow graceful dance, which is funny considering Minuet used to be our caster stance lol

Anyway, personally I think having songs go back to being spells is the best way to give the feeling of ‘singing during battle’. I mean, Dancer itself already has a mini-rhythm game with Steps doesn’t it? I’d rather see them get more Steps with more interesting effects than more damage abilities. Maybe a two-step aoe heal? Haste buff for Dance Partner with three steps? Damage reduction and regen for party but it’s a 4 step one? The ‘busyness’ of using procs and fan dance procs during Technical Step made the rotation feel like it came together like a dance, but that’s kind of lost now with all the shiny poop ‘HIT AFTER 120s’ abilities (they’ve been cleaned up to look good but they’re still poop)

[Ramiee]

The thing is that BRD already has the numerically strongest raid buffs in the game right now. At full power, BRD has 6% dps + 20% dh + 2% crit buffs during burst while everyone else is 3-5% buff with AST likely being the second strongest (6% + 2X 6% single target buffs). And yet, BRD is the least played phys ranged even though it is currently the strongest in its role, but still one of the weaker dps jobs according to The Math™.

Well it's partly because it's the only job in the game with a raid buff with a fail state, if you die you lose percentage increase on your buff and the raidbuff isn't way stronger than others to make it feel more rewarding. 1% increase over everyone else for perfect play is not rewarding enough to deal with the terrible song timer system.

It's the least played Phys ranged because it's one of the hardest jobs in the game due to song timers forcing you to stare at your hotbar, having to check for procs constantly and being the only DPS in the game now with dot management, all of this while barely being above tanks in damage. Even if the buffing Bard did was absurdly op, if it's damage remains near tank levels a lot of people wouldn't play it. It's not worth having such a busy job that's got low damage when you could play dancer which is much less busy, punishing and has strong buffs too.