Dawntrail character graphics update - opinions, requests and discussion megathread

[Sui-Kune]

Can I please emphasise that it is not simply "Hyurification", it is specific-human-face-ification. My Hyur might still be a Hyur but she is not the same Hyur I had before.

Her eyes are a different shape, eyelashes swoop outwards instead of upwards, nose is completely different, cheeks less rounded and chin less pointed.

They might not be fancy race-specific traits but they're the normal things we use to tell one human face from another, and they are not adding up to the same person as before.

I apologize profusely, I acknowledge and understand that hyurs also got a sledgehammer to them, and I regret not including that in my post.

What I meant was how the other races ended up getting traits far more similar to hyur than their original appearance. And honestly, thinking on it, it's only even more confusing re: the shared mesh thing, that hyurs still also ended up mangled. It's honestly amazing how they bungled it across the board.

[Zomkei]

seconding this! I know male midlanders across the board seem to have been made "more masculine" (i.e. smaller eyes, thinner lips, etc) in a way that totally nerfed individual unique features. I think the best example of this "woah, this doesn't look like the same person at all" phenomenon for people who don't play as hyur is definitely Thancred's updated model ):

meanwhile, male viera is made more "feminine". my character's jaw is rounded now instead of angular and his eyes are bigger / rounder. makes him look like hes 16 and its driving me crazy.



6.5/benchmark/7.0

[faiarrow]

Can I please emphasise that it is not simply "Hyurification", it is specific-human-face-ification. My Hyur might still be a Hyur but she is not the same Hyur I had before.

Her eyes are a different shape, eyelashes swoop outwards instead of upwards, nose is completely different, cheeks less rounded and chin less pointed.

They might not be fancy race-specific traits but they're the normal things we use to tell one human face from another, and they are not adding up to the same person as before.

The human-default race of the game is hyur.

The gear mesh has always been based on hyur and modified to the other races — this now also applies heavily to the faces. If I could dig it up in the JP thread there is a gif that shows the current base polygon morph and how it works from hyur all the way through to the other races. It all starts from the (current) hyur polygons.

Yes, it is hyurification. I understand heavily that hyur are also messed up right now (I've been boosting your posts for months because I 100% agree with the points you bring up and how changed your chara is!), but when hyur is the base model used and has led to issues like the complete cluster of polygons on lalafellin faces completely changing their noses, and the rounding of roegadyn, and the less-rabbit defined viera, it is hyurification. It's the same homogenistion we're seeing across the game for a lot of things.

(I stress it's not a Bad Word, I really really want to stress that, but it is correct to the current graphical workflow and does not diminish that hyur's base polygons do not match the original models but has a ripple effect to the more beastial races.)

[lunartears]

The human-default race of the game is hyur.

The gear mesh has always been based on hyur and modified to the other races — this now also applies heavily to the faces. If I could dig it up in the JP thread there is a gif that shows the current base polygon morph and how it works from hyur all the way through to the other races. It all starts from the (current) hyur polygons.

[Iscah]

The human-default race of the game is hyur.

You're missing my point.

Humans do not all have a single identical face.

This new morphing model was presumably produced by building one "basic face for everyone" and stretching it to (theoretically) resemble each of the individual faces. This basic face might be classifiable as "a Hyur" but that doesn't mean that individual Hyur faces are going to be preserved any better than any other race, because all of the races have essentially human faces and only the proportions vary.

My Hyur doesn't have her original face any more; it has been replaced with a poorly morphed version of the basic face that only bears a passing resemblance to her.

[faiarrow]

You're missing my point.

Humans do not all have a single identical face.

This new morphing model was presumably produced by building one "basic face for everyone" and stretching it to (theoretically) resemble each of the individual faces. This basic face might be classifiable as "a Hyur" but that doesn't mean that individual Hyur faces are going to be preserved any better than any other race, because all of the races have essentially human faces and only the proportions vary.

My Hyur doesn't have her original face any more; it has been replaced with a poorly morphed version of the basic face that only bears a passing resemblance to her.

And you are missing mine?
How else can I stress that the more beastial races have become more hyuran without using the term hyur as it is the base model currently used to morph all faces.

The evidence is literally in the post above yours.

I've never said anything against the fact that hyur are also currently messed up from the exact thing you just mentioned: 'basic face for everyone' which is what is being used. That gif is from a FAN FEST DEV PANEL. It is WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

Please do not misconstrue my point. We are both suffering the loss of our characters from the same issue. Mine happens to be "femroe are basically highlander 2", yours is "the base morphing is incorrect to the original face of my midlander." They stem from the same problem, and it sucks.

[Cheapshot]

Right lol. And I'm not going to say the eyelashes don't matter -- they contribute to the overall impression of the eye shape, etc. -- but even on the Japanese side of the discussion, they're not a major talking point, relatively speaking. I think they singled it out solely because it was the one thing they had a clear-cut technical explanation for that also underplayed their bigger mistakes.

I think so too. I assume you're referring to this.

Eyelashes in particular are being affected by several issues. With the improved accuracy of semi-transparent rendering, more light is transmitted, making eyelashes appear thinner. We also layered multiple textures in order to make up for their low resolution, but with the recent resolution increase, this resulted in darker eyelashes. When we decreased the number of textures to accommodate, noticeable differences emerged. It should be noted, however, this issue only affects a select few face types. As with the first category, we intend to address this issue in Patch 7.1.

So I think this is explaining why so many peoples eyelashes were super thick and dark in the first iteration of the benchmark. I think they felt that eyelashes appeared too thin to them so for the first iteration of the benchmark they added multiple layers to thicken them? But then they appeared very dark, like heavy mascara, so they removed those layers? But the explanation sidesteps several more important issues, the main of which being that they entirely replaced my eyelashes with different ones in the first place.

These were all taken with default lighting in roughly the same position and angle. On the same backdrop too. I know they look like they're all lit differently. I guess it was just major differences in the games lighting itself between versions.


They talked all about how they caused and reversed a problem, but completely gloss over the fact that those are completely different eyelashes between 6.0 and 7.0. Not even a shred of similarity in shape or style. I really strongly preferred the original lashes for my character. I don't understand why they were redesigned and I suspect my original lash style wont be coming back? I am not very pleased with the public statement.

I'll offer a few more pieces of feedback about the above image as well while I'm here:
-I really preferred the original iris and eye whites. The new ones are more detailed but in kind of a bad way. The originals looked clear and sharp and bright, while the new ones are dull and grey and blurrier for some reason. Catch lights and reflections in the new eyes are too diffused which I think worsens the problem. The level of detail also doesn't really match the rest of the face and it looks out of place to me.
-The brows seem to have lost a lot of their variation in thickness. They're much more flat and full across the whole brow now, while before the ends and the edges faded out more with some transparency which I liked. Same as the eyelashes, the brows seem to be the same resolution before and after so I don't understand why they were changed either.
-I like the improved textures of the edges of the skin surrounding the eye. I think they're a big improvement.

I plan to offer more feedback about the mouth as well, which is the part of my new face that bothers me the most.

[FateweaverAlpha]

I want to bring up the issue again of darker skin tones all looking lighter and more washed out/gray with the graphics update. I know that this is not being addressed often because not many people play as characters using the darker skin tones, but it is very obvious to me and has made the disparity in available skin tones between (for example) sun cats and midlanders much more obvious. my character can no longer have the skin tone he had prior to the update, and switching to the only darker option left for him has made made it very obvious that the highlight feature on dark skin is way too over tuned. I hope that this will be addressed in a future update, even if not the closest one. (if this continues to be an issue post 7.1, I'll compile refs.)

Honestly you are completely right about the washed out darker skin tones. My Duskwight boy who uses one of the darker skin tones suffers from this. I posted this pic awhile back in this thread but here it is again to prove the point.
He uses the farthest right skin tone and ten down in the shades.



--

I'm praying that the Elezen males see some fixes but I'm not hopeful. Everyone keeps telling me that it's just lighting or he looks better the way he is now and it just hurts my heart to hear it. Sure I haven't played for long, a scant 3 years, in comparison to others but he was MY character the way I wanted him to be now he's just a yassified mess of blurry shapes and rounded corners. I miss his grumpy original face so much. UnU

[noumen0nn]

Took some time to skim through the JP forum earlier (using google translate, so not 100% accurate obviously), and they seem to be just as puzzled by the recent announcement as we are, saying there's no way that all the differences that popped up have anything to do with polygons or normal maps. Glad to know that at least we aren't the only ones fed up with the half-truths and downplay from yoshi p and the devs.

[noumen0nn]

Honestly you are completely right about the washed out darker skin tones. My Duskwight boy who uses one of the darker skin tones suffers from this. I posted this pic awhile back in this thread but here it is again to prove the point.
He uses the farthest right skin tone and ten down in the shades.



--

I'm praying that the Elezen males see some fixes but I'm not hopeful. Everyone keeps telling me that it's just lighting or he looks better the way he is now and it just hurts my heart to hear it. Sure I haven't played for long, a scant 3 years, in comparison to others but he was MY character the way I wanted him to be now he's just a yassified mess of blurry shapes and rounded corners. I miss his grumpy original face so much. UnU

Anyone saying "it's just the lighting" did not look at this image for more than 2 seconds. These two characters barely resemble one another. What on earth did they do to his brow ridge?